Kobo Writing Life Podcast – 371 – Writing Fictional Futures with Grace Flahive

Episode Transcript

Episode transcript provided by Speechpad

Tara: Hey, writers, you are listening to the "Kobo Writing Life" podcast, where we bring you insights and inspiration for growing your self-publishing business. I'm your host Tara Cremin, and I'm the director of Kobo Writing Life.

This week on the podcast, we talked to Grace Flahive about her debut novel, "Palm Meridian." It's set in 2067 in Florida that is partially underwater and it's set in a lesbian retirement resort which was such an interesting setting. The story is so fun and also really tear-jerking because it's about Hannah, our main protagonist, who has opted for a medically assisted death but they're throwing her a hell of an end of life party and that's sort of the story where she is trying to find a lost love. So, it is as funny as it is going to make you cry. I know Rachel wept a bit reading this one, but we talked to Grace about the writing process, about how her experience previously working in the publishing industry has sort of led into writing this book and then what's next for her. We had a great conversation with Grace, and I hope you enjoy it too.

Rachel: We are joined today by author Grace Flahive whose debut novel, "Palm Meridian," is releasing... It will be released by the time this podcast comes out, but it is releasing next week, May 27th. Welcome to the pod, Grace.

Grace: Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting.

Rachel: We are very excited to talk to you. Both Tara and I absolutely loved "Palm Meridian," so cannot wait to dig into the book with you. But before we do that, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey into becoming an author?

Grace: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am coming to you guys from London, England where I live now. I've lived here for over a decade but I'm originally Canadian. So, yeah, I grew up in Toronto. I've been writing my whole life as early as I can remember. I always say I think the first official piece of fiction that I wrote was Spice Girls fan fiction in about 1997. I wrote myself as the sixth Spice Girl, but annoyingly I can't remember what spice I'd given myself so maybe I need to figure that out now.

But, yeah, I've been writing stories my whole life. I went to university at McGill, and I studied English literature as all writers aspire to. And I really, really love that experience. Montreal, as you know, has made it into the book. And then, yeah, after my undergrad I moved over here to the UK to study publishing so a bit more of a practical MA post-grad degree for one year. I've since been here for 11 years which was never meant to happen, but that's the way with life. And in the last five years or so, I've written loads throughout my life but I decided, "You know what? I think it's time to really professionalize this and shoot for the stars." So, I went through the whole process of getting a literary agent and going on a submission and all of that while working in publishing myself. So, I work for two non-fiction publishers in marketing, so kind of being on both sides of the publishing industry. And, yeah, about a year and a half go wildest dream came true, and now I'm a writer, and yeah, so excited to have "Palm Meridian" out in Canada to begin with. So, first publication day is in Canada which is really special to me.

Tara: Before we jump into the book, I just have to ask which Spice Girl you were growing up and same question Rachel.

Grace: So, I was always Baby Spice and I would always get... I don't know if you remember from the '90s, but there was those lollipops that had Spice Girls and they had, like, the gums.

Tara: Chupa Chups.

Grace: Yes, and they come with a little sticker in them so I was always looking for Baby Spice but that was only because I was the youngest child and I was born in November so I was always kind of the youngest. I did a talent show Spice Girls sort of dance with some friends and I was Baby Spice. So, what were you Rachel?

Rachel: Also a November Baby Spice over here.

Grace: Oh, what day?

Rachel: The 27th so I'm a Sagittarius.

Grace: Oh, okay, 2nd. I'm a Scorpio.

Rachel: All right, okay. I have a lot of feelings about Scorpio, but I won’t get into it on the podcast. But I was also Baby Spice. In the process of moving and during packing, I don't know if I should admit this, I just found a Spice Girl Chupa Chups.

Tara: I wouldn't eat them.

Rachel: No, they are melted. The stickers couldn't tell you what they were.

Grace: Oh, my God. I bet if you ate it, Y2K would happen or something. It's like there's demons in there.

Rachel: Or really good Spice Girl energy. I mean, it should go one of two ways.

Tara: Like Spider-Man but Spice Girls.

Tara: I was Ginger always because I don't know, she seems the loudest sort of bratty one I guess.

Grace: I feel like you can't go wrong.

Tara: But "Palm Meridian" is your debut. We'll skip our Spice Girls talk but thanks for indulging me. But as you mentioned, it's not your first foray into publishing as you've worked on the marketing side of the industry. I'm just curious about what your experience has been now on the author side.

Grace: Yeah, so it's really interesting. And I think it's been really helpful because I left my last job in publishing almost a year ago now actually about nine months ago. And so very recently, I was having marketing chats with authors. I was on that kind of side of the email chain. And now, in January, I had a sit down meeting with my publisher to talk about our marketing and everything. So, it was interesting to literally just be on the other side of the table and really helpful I think. I think it helped me have realistic expectations about what might happen. It helped me know which questions to ask and what information I needed from them and also how I can help them support the PR and the marketing and stuff. I know how things go. But yeah, I think it's really overall been helpful. And, yeah, I'm just enjoying... It's very surreal to be on the other side. And I was always marketing other people's books. So, I've been really enjoying just putting that energy into my own.

Rachel: Has anything about being on the author side surprised you, either from a marketing perspective or just throughout the entire publishing process?

Grace: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the only thing... And this isn't actually different, but it feels different is how long the process is. Because when I was working myself in publishing as a marketer, I was working on 20 books at a time or something. You were just sort of always flipping between something. So, you didn't really notice the time passing between a book being acquired and then sitting down with an author and then publication day and pre-orders and all that stuff. But as a writer, it's your only project. So, you're really aware of it. But that said, it has gone really quickly. So, I signed my book deal in October 2023 for May/June 2025 release. And at the time, that felt like a futuristic timeline. But now it's next week. So, yeah, the time has felt different, but it's actually been the same.

Tara: And your book, "Palm Meridian," it's very, very funny and it has a truly unique setting. So, I wonder if you could give listeners a quick overview of the book and the setting.

Grace: Yeah, absolutely. So, "Palm Meridian" is set at a retirement resort for queer women in Florida in the year 2067. And it takes place on the last day of Hannah Cardin's life. So, she's received a terminal cancer diagnosis. So, she's going to die by assisted dying tomorrow, but she's throwing a massive end of life party with her 200 closest friends. And she's invited her long lost love, Sophie, who she hasn't seen in over four years to arrive. So, the book takes place over Hannah's last 24 hours, but it also takes place over her whole life of 77 years.

Rachel: I would love to know what inspired so many aspects of this book. But let's kind of start with the setting, both physical, the retirement home in Florida, and also the futuristic setting of 2067.

Grace: Yeah, definitely. So, the inspiration for the resort came from kind of an unlikely place but kind of maybe super obvious depending how you think about it. So, I mean, like many Canadians, we, when I was a kid, would go down to Florida occasionally for winter vacations and escape the cold. And when I was 5, so 1997, which is actually, weirdly, has ended up being 70 years exactly from when "Palm Meridian" is set, we went to Disney World and we went to a resort called All-Star Music, which actually still exists, I think. But in the '90s, it was even more kind of really campy, really colorful, just sort of looked like this completely surreal world because everything was like bongos and xylophones. It was all music themed. Everything was three stories high. And, yeah, so when I knew I wanted to set a book in Florida, because I've been back many times throughout my life and I knew I wanted to kind of set a story there. That space seemed like a really obvious place to start from. It's already really kind of surreal. It's really over the top.

Originally, when I sat down to write the first draft, I was going to have it actually be All-Star Music and just be... Because in the book, Disney has gone bust. It doesn't exist anymore. And Orlando is sort of left with the wreckage of a lot of these theme parks. And I was going to have it be that these people had bought this old, decaying resort and they turned it into a retirement home, but I didn't go with that in the end. But, yeah, kind of a little bit of nostalgia in my own life.

And then, yeah, the year 2067, kind of, I never set out to write speculative fiction or to set anything in the future. I've noticed that when I tell people what my book is about, they hear the year 2067, I think they're picturing sci-fi flying cars kind of stuff. And it's not that at all. And it's not because... I mean, I don't feel equipped to write sci-fi. I have so much admiration for sci-fi writers. But the reason I said it so far in the future is because I kind of had turned it into this thought experiment of wanting to just see what my friends and I might be up to in 40 years. And part of it was structural. I knew that I wanted to write a love story, which I'd never done before. And I wanted that kind of emotional payoff that you get in stories like "The Notebook," where you see both ends of a really long life and you see these characters in these different times in their life.

I didn't really want to cast backwards from our present just because a queer story in the past would have different parameters. That's a whole separate thing. So, I just thought, let me give myself a year that doesn't exist yet so I can have all the fun I want with it. And, yeah, so I ended up writing about 2067. But the nice thing about that is it ended up being a story about older queer living, which I hadn't originally set out to do. It was just because I was picturing my own self and my friends at 70 and 80 years old.

Rachel: Just a quick interjection to say I was also at the All-Star Music Resort in 1997.

Grace: No way. We have home videos and photos and stuff. I bet it's one of those things where in the background you're like...

Tara: You're both dressed as Baby Spice just running around.

Grace: I'm going to look into this. Oh, my god, no, I feel like...

Rachel: That's so funny.

Grace: Yeah, I've not had anyone have that same experience, so that's amazing.

Rachel: Anyways, just needed to toss that in there.

Grace: The cafeteria is like... When I'm picturing the food hall at Palm Meridian, I'm picturing that cafeteria. Everything is really colorful.

Rachel: That's incredible. I know exactly what you're picturing.

Grace: Amazing.

Tara: It is very interesting that you say, by just saying the year 2067, that our imaginations do go to flying cars or futuristic when it's actually not that far away. There's just something about the 20. It's like the year 2000 where we thought everything would change and nothing did.

Grace: Yeah. No, it's really... I did the math the other day just to, kind of, get my head around it. And 2067 is as far away from now as 1983 is, which is really mind-boggling because it's far away but it's not that far away. So, I think it puts it in context and also it hammers home that idea by accident that barring the actual end of the world, a lot of us will still be alive in 2067. So, it's very much a... Yes, it's this utopia, but also that's a real year that we all will live in if we treat the planet correctly.

Tara: Here's hoping we'll still be there.

Grace: Yeah, who knows?

Tara: But you've mentioned there that you didn't intend to write about older protagonists or end of life, but I wonder the storyline of the assisted death is just what your story is about. So, what prompted that direction in the story?

Grace: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think originally it had started... It was a bit of both. It was an emotional reason but also a structural reason. So, I think structurally, again, once I had settled on things like it being set over 24 hours, I think I wanted to crank the stakes up as high as I could just to sort of... Again, that kind of emotional payoff. So, I thought, what better stakes than life or death, literally? So, if I had this protagonist that is set to die at the end of the book, then that really cranks that up.

But also just emotionally, and I think this shows in the book, I think you don't have to be an older person to find death completely fascinating and ridiculous. I think it inform... The fact that we die one day informs everything we do in our everyday life. I did my major in English list, but my minor was in philosophy. So, the scenes that are set in Montreal, I was doing a lot of faux philosophical thinking, I think, when I was 19 in Montreal. But I've just always been fascinated with our mortality. I think it informs everything that we do in every minute of every day.

So, once I came to that, I think it really kind of laid the groundwork for "Palm Meridian" because even though she's going to die the next day, they're throwing a party. And a lot of the book is them laughing and having a great time. So, it's kind of touching on both of those extremes of, yes, we're going to die tomorrow but we're going to live today.

Rachel: I was talking to Tara about this earlier today, just how much I really enjoyed the different reactions to Hannah's impending death, especially depending on her relationship with the character but also the age of the character and how our relationship with mortality really changes throughout our life. And I'm curious how you kind of approach that idea when delving into your cast of characters.

Grace: Yeah, definitely. So, well, it's funny you should say that actually, because we had a lot of... I mean, Palm Meridian went through, depending on how you count it, six or seven rounds of edits. And in each of those different drafts, I think my agents, my editors and I, we really got closer to kind of calibrating that in the right way, in a way that would feel authentic for a reader and that would also create the right amount of tension that would build hopefully to a crescendo. And, yeah, the one character, Ricky, who stands out, he's 25 years old and he works at the resort. And I think it was one of my editors that made that really good point where they said, "He must have a different relationship to death." He's 25 years old. He's not like these 70 and 80 and 90-year-olds. And he maybe hasn't lost people or he hasn't lost people who aren't older. These people have been through a whole many decades longer than he has, and they've experienced death in all forms at that point. So, yeah, we had a lot of chats about that.

And, yeah, I had a lot of fun going into the backstories of each of the characters and kind of fleshing them out in different ways. And I think that then those backstories informed how they react to Hannah's news. And so for example, a character like Christine, we know that her partner died two years before and she's using the party as almost this chance to begin to move on and to celebrate life again. But yeah, I think it was a really helpful way actually to characterize the characters by thinking what is their relationship to Hannah and how would they react to this news? And I think everybody does it a little bit differently.

Tara: We'll jump into some of your side characters in a little bit because there were so many that were just really great and I have my favorites. But I'd like to chat a little bit about the writing process for it as it is told over so many storylines and timelines. So, what did the plotting process look like for this?

Grace: It kind of started out... I think it started as many writing projects do. It started out really simply and then once I had a grapple on the sort of simple facts of what I needed to lay out, I then was able to have a lot of fun with building in texture and layers and things like that. So, I think the base of it was the two timelines. So, we're in the future in 2067 but then we're also showing Hannah's early life. So, from her birth in 1990 until about her mid 30s.

It'd actually be interesting to look back at earlier drafts of it to see if I had sort of moved things around. But yeah, I knew that the 24-hour structure was really going to help me just be very straightforward with those. So, I've literally the top of the chapters say 8 a.m., 9 a.m., everything leading up until 8 a.m. the next morning. So, that was really helpful just for me as a writer and just the logistical side of things, that gave me kind of a clear sense of what I needed to do in each chapter. And also it gave me something to kind of hang my emotional beats on and sort of look at a character arc over that time.

But then yeah, the back stories, I think I had, you might say, too much fun. I hadn't meant to bring in all of these different locations. But again, I sort of then had that as a separate kind of arc. So, thinking how did Hannah's childhood inform where she's at now? How did she fall in love? How did that love come to no longer be in the past? And then it was a process of slotting those two storylines together. And that was something really interesting. And it got a little bit, not confusing but near the end when we were moving things around, there'd be... I mean, there are writers who are really, really strong at this sort of intricate plottings and everything. And I was really doing my best to push myself.

And if there was a chapter where we'd shown something happening in 2022, and then we moved that chapter, but then you see somebody talking about it in the future, there was a lot of kind of moving things around and making sure that the way that we were revealing information to a reader was really satisfying and that it was hopefully encouraging a reader to continue on and find out that information in the right order that would make it the most entertaining possible. But yeah, it was a lot of kind of laying things out in a notebook and moving things around and Post-its and stuff. So, yeah, difficult, but I hope we got there in the end.

Rachel: And I feel like you kind of almost answered this, but I'm going to ask it anyways. When it comes to those connections between Hannah's life in the "future" or the "present"—I'm using air quotes, this is an audio medium, but I'm using air quotes—or in the "past," how many of those connections existed kind of in your mind while you were writing the first draft of the novel? And how many came to you during revisions and editing?

Grace: That's such a good question. I think the big ones were there from the beginning. So, the second I started writing, I knew how I wanted the book to end, and I knew sort of which events in the past would impact that in the future. But to be honest, once I knew how it was going to end, I kind of had free rein to then work backwards and be like, "Okay, well, if that's how it ends, then how do we get there both on that final day but in those 30 years that I'm showing?"

So, I think a lot of that went through a lot of revision, and there was also an extra chapter. I won't give any spoilers, but I had originally cut off the backstory chapters at a certain point, and you no longer saw Hannah's life beyond... I think it was 2020 something, whatever, and I think it was about present day actually or actual present day. And I think it was one of my editors said, "Let's have one more snippet. Let's see one more thing." And it's one of those things, and I think it made the change and everything, because it was just that extra scene that gave you, kind of, that backstory and the emotional story of things, that then, when you return to the future, to 2067, you kind of have a bit more context to things, and it adds an emotional layer.

But yeah, my favorite thing about writing is when you are a few drafts in and you're able to start making themes and motifs and images and stuff. So, that was something that came up, again, originally by accident but then it kind of became a central thing of the story is there's extreme switching back and forth also between Montreal, where it's minus 30 degrees Celsius, and then Florida, where it's completely sweltering, climate-change heat. So, that became kind of a motif that I had a lot of fun with, and also in literally making Hannah a heating and cooling expert, and all that stuff. So, I was able to kind of play around with that and those images of snow and sun and all that stuff. But, yeah, it's definitely a gradual process. But, yeah, that's the fun of it.

Tara: Had you written before a story knowing the ending first or was this the first time you've, kind of, taken that angle?

Grace: I think this was, kind of, the first time I've done that. Yeah, I mean, stuff I've written before I think was definitely kind of practice for writing this, if that makes sense. I think I really learned a lot about writing in writing "Palm Meridian." I think it's the book that involves the most structure and involves the most plot that I've ever written. I see a lot of stuff I was writing before which was kind of running on vibes, as they say. And "Palm Meridian" is running on vibes with hopefully a really gripping plot as well. So, yeah, but I think it's something I'll use in the future because I think it almost gives you an inbuilt sense of motivation to say, "I know the ending. I just have to get there." And then you can have fun getting yourself there.

Tara: Nice. And we talked about the side characters who... There's quite a cast of characters that you have, and the Eileens were my favorite. I really liked Small and Tall Eileen. I thought those were great little details. So, I'm just curious, do you have advice for authors who are looking to add depth to side characters?

Grace: That's such a good question. The way that I've done it in this... And I've never written something with so many secondary characters who actually have an impact on the book or who are present and interacting a lot with the main character. So, the way I've done it is... And, again, I was talking to my editors about this to make sure that... I wanted to really make the reader feel connected to these characters and feel like they really knew them, but I didn't want to slow down the pace by... Especially at the beginning, because you meet them all in the first couple chapters when they all arrive at the bar in the morning. And I didn't want to sort of... I've just got the reader hooked and then it turns into kind of a Lord of the Rings-style, "Okay, here's the backstory of each of these people."

So, I think the way that we did it was, I mean, A, I think I had to be quite tight with my writing in that I gave myself a couple paragraphs or something to characterize each of those secondary characters but then also, we played around with... I didn't necessarily put that text for every single character right when you met them. So, for example, Ricky, I had another sort of backstory for him, and we ended up putting that later, like a few chapters later just because it felt better in the flow of things.

But then I think one thing I found really useful in "Palm Meridian" was I was able to do a lot of the characterization through dialogue. And, again, I'm not sure if that was something I'd really done quite so much of before. But, yeah, I mean, A, the bar scenes at the beginning where they're all kind of interacting and you're getting to know everyone, there was a lot that I was able to do with what would that look like, how can I get across the type of person that this is based on how they're behaving in this quite weird situation where their friend is going to die tomorrow.

But then the party scenes were so much fun, because I then got to throw all these people into a party and be like, "Who are you at a party? Are you that guy? Are you the fun one? Are you the one who's taking care of everyone?" So, I think I was able to kind of do a lot of characterization in ways that didn't slow down the story at all and, in fact, was part of doing the work of telling the story. So, yeah, I don't feel like an expert on character at all. It was definitely something I wanted to get really good at. But yeah, I think I'm really happy with that kind of group that's come together.

Tara: It had like a Day of the Locust vibe but in a really good way like some of the rowdy party scenes, you know?

Grace: Oh, amazing. Thank you.

Rachel: I'm curious with these backstories of the characters that you're mentioning. Are they something that you kind of fleshed out before tackling the major plot? Did you know, "Okay, these are the Eileens. One of them's short, one of them's tall. These are their personalities," and then you inserted them into the book and kind of placed information as necessary or...? How did that development process work for you?

Grace: Yeah, that's a good question. Again, it was a little bit of both. I think I wanted to make sure... I liked this idea of having this group of characters who kind of all... In a lot of ways, they have nothing in common. They're all very different. They're very different personalities. They have very different backgrounds. But they've come together and formed this really wholesome friendship group. And so I guess I kind of... I mean, I can't remember exactly, but I think it was kind of, yeah, mining from my own life, from people I've met, from kind of just thinking of queer friendship groups and the kind of tropes that are there. Not stereotypes, but kind of I think... I hope that queer people especially can kind of look at this friendship group and be like, "Yes, that is what it's like." It's this beautiful group of people who... A lot of them have very big personalities. Everybody's so taking care of each other and looking after each other. And they kind of have nothing in common, but they're still having this hilarious party. So, yeah, I think, again, that was kind of a gradual process. And, yeah, the Eileens are also my favorite. I think Small Eileen is one of my favorite characters in the book. I think she's the funniest and, yeah, I really love her.

Tara: Yeah. You kind of answered that question. We were curious if any of the characters were inspired by you or if any of them have inspired you.

Grace: Yeah. Well, I think in some way, Hannah is me. I mean, I don't have the science brain that I've given to Hannah, but I think in my head that she's the closest thing to me. I think only just in that I was seeing that world through my eyes and therefore her eyes. So, I think I've kind of made her an avatar of myself, but one with an engineering degree and a really smart science brain.

But yeah, one of the funniest things I think that never came up in edits was the reason... I've given Sophie the job of professional ski jumper. No one ever questioned that. I don't know anything about ski jumping, but I just thought that was... It worked. And, yeah, I hope it doesn't stick out, but she's a ski jumper. So, yeah, that definitely was not taken from real life.

Rachel: One thing that I personally really loved about this book is that it is a very queer book. Almost all of the characters fall under the LGBTQ+ umbrella with maybe a token straight guy or two. And it's also very much about community. And I'm kind of curious, by choosing a community that exists outside of the heteronormative expectation of children looking after their parents, how essential was the queerness to exploring the community aspect of this book?

Grace: Yeah, that's a really good question. It started from the very beginning. So, Palm Meridian, before I even started a first draft, when I was still in the brainstorming stages, I mean, the very early drafts of it were like a woman who was in her 80s, and she's in a hotel somewhere in Florida. It was on the coast. And it was kind of one of those things that was like... It was like a topic, but it wasn't yet a premise. There was no hook to it yet. And I remember thinking, thinking, thinking, "This isn't right. I need something that I can be excited about."

And when I landed on the phrase... And I don't remember how I did this but I landed on the phrase "lesbian retirement resort." And I was like, "That's something that makes it funny." And I'd never actually written a queer love story before. I've never really written a very queer book, which is bizarre. I'm queer. That's what I know. That's what comes naturally to me. And I think the reason I was able to have so much fun with "Palm Meridian" was because I hadn't had all this material to work with. I'd never done that before. It's a utopia. So, it's definitely... It's the queer community that we wish that could exist in every place in the world.

But, yeah, I think it's incredibly important. And it's now weirdly... I mean, when I wrote this book and I had it in my final edits, I didn't know that Trump was going to be elected again, for example. So, it's kind of retroactively become even more important, I think, to be showing spaces like this and to be showing queer people just having fun and being silly.

And so, yeah, it's a weird situation. And, yeah, I think that queer communities have become more important than they even were a year and a half ago when we signed off to this book. So, yeah, and again I think it can be... I hope that it's a universal love story that anybody can enjoy, but I think there will be aspects of it that queer people, it's a bit of a wink-wink. There's jokes in there. I mean, just the fact of the Eileens having the same name I think there's something so queer about that. And, yeah, I hope everyone can enjoy it.

Rachel: And I will say, also really enjoyed the kind of irony of this queer utopia "lesbian retirement resort" existing in Florida of all places. I love it so much.

Grace: Yeah, it's really interesting too, because I think I've had people just assume I'm American because it's set in the U.S., and I'm like, "No, I'm Canadian." And they're like, "Oh, so you live in Canada?" I'm like, "No, I live in Britain. So, it's a whole... Yeah, it's become this hodgepodge. But, yeah, I mean, I've been to Florida a dozen times in my life, let's say, but I hope... I'm a bit frightened of people from Florida to read it. I don't know that I've... I hope I've done it justice, but it's the future. I've made it up. It's fine.

Tara: Well, your book has some very, very funny moments and paired with the tragedy, as we've talked about, where the whole storyline is this impending death. You know, it's about the main characters, but it's about her dying. So, how did you balance writing the humor with the very serious death, for lack of a better phrase? Sorry.

Grace: Yeah, a friend of mine read the book recently, and he said, "That was the most fun I had watching someone die," which I think it sums it up well. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because in some ways, to go back to the structure we were talking about, the future chapters are set at a party. It's literally a celebration. So, in many ways, a lot of that was built in there for me a little bit. That's where everybody's drinking and partying and laughing and stuff. And then the past chapters are showing often these really joyful moments but also these really wrenching, heartbreaking moments that give you the backstory for what Hannah has experienced. But, yeah, I think in reality, both of those storylines have a bit of both. And I think, yeah, it came kind of... Like I said about motifs and themes, I think those two extremes ended up becoming really built into the story on so many levels. So, like the hot and the cold, the extreme ends of her life. We see her literally being conceived, and then she's heading towards her death. But, yeah, also the extremes of the moments that I chose to show about Hannah's life in order to give the backstory are the happiest moments of her life mixed in with the saddest moments of her life.

So, yeah, I think it was an exercise in trying almost to keep the flow going, because I didn't want to... I don't want a reader to have to slog through loads and loads of really devastating stuff. I think I wanted everything to be mixed in together, because that's what life is. Like I was saying earlier, life is completely ridiculous, and it's very bittersweet. I think that kind of the central theme of the book is that we're all going to die one day, but we can still have fun now. And, yeah, I think the characters themselves do a lot of kind of laughing and crying and laughing and crying, and crying until they laugh, and laughing until they cry. So, yeah, with drafts, I think that came together hopefully cohesively.

Rachel: And much like the characters, I also laughed and then cried a lot.

Grace: I'm so sorry.

Rachel: No, it was good. It was perfect. But you've kind of touched on the weather and the changing of the seasons in one's life throughout the book. But there's also aspects of climate change very much in the background of the novel. And I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how these themes intertwine.

Grace: Yeah, definitely. So, I think that was the thing. So, again, I'd never set something in the future before. So, I was feeling a bit daunted by it at first, but then I think once I kind of settled myself in the world of the resort, I was like, "I really only need to..." It's such an isolated place. I was like, "No, I really only need to nail this place of, like, what would 2067 look like in this one resort?" And the only thing... I mean, like I said about Trump, it's so hard now to picture what the world's going to be like in a week, let alone 40 years. But I think the one thing I knew would probably be consistent would be climate change will have worsened.

And so I think I did a bunch of Googling around those climate prediction maps of seeing what shores will have risen and the ocean water rising and all that stuff. So, I think something that's pretty certain is that parts of the world, like Southern Florida, will just be uninhabitable maybe, hopefully, in much longer than 40 years but definitely eventually. So, I kind of took that as basis for what I was working on.

I mean, story-wise, it kind of becomes a plot device in a way because this place is so isolated. And I think it really helps kind of emphasize the community that they've created there, because the weather is so harsh and it's so isolating. And Disney is... They've got all of the wreckage of Disney nearby, and there's towns that are completely burnt out and abandoned nearby and stuff. So, it really, again, helps that story-wise, kind of cranking up how fun and how colorful this place is, kind of almost in protest of how the world is.

And some of the fun things I think I was able to put in were just like... I love in movies when you can kind of paint a really big picture but only with one little word or a little image or something. So, I think there was something I said about... There's no communication... A lot of the telephone communications and the Internet aren't really reliable anymore. And so they said this whole place could go up in a fireball, and Washington wouldn't know for a week or something. Yeah, I think I wanted to indicate a lot about what's happened in 40 years with just a couple of quick strokes, and then actually just focus on the emotional lives of the characters.

Rachel: And do you have any advice for authors who are looking to include more serious topics like climate change throughout their book but in a lighthearted way?

Grace: Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because I feel like having worked in the publishing side... I mean, I've always worked in nonfiction, so I can't speak for people who are acquiring fiction or working in fiction. But I think kind of like cli-fi is a thing now. And I think it's one of those things, kind of like writing about COVID where it's like there's kind of this hesitancy of like, "Yes, that happened, but we don't want to acknowledge it in the market." You know, people aren't going to necessarily want to read this depressing stuff about these horrible things that are happening in the world. I mean, this isn't a good thing but our writing just will have to include climate change now. It's not like this dystopian thing. It's a special genre. It's like that's just a fact of our world now.

So, yeah, I mean, I feel very optimistic about the future. I'd like to think that a place like Palm Meridian can exist in a not-completely-destroyed world in 40 years. But, yeah, I think our stories—both sad and both cheerful—I think we'll probably just naturally start to include climate change, because it's starting to become more of our reality.

Tara: That leads well into my next question is, would you like to retire in Palm Meridian, and can I come?

Grace: Oh, my God, I would love to. I'm going to start making a waitlist or something. Yeah, I had a lot of fun just thinking about that as a world and honestly just thinking about, like, what would we do all day there? What are the activities? And it was whole paragraphs. I was just like, "This is slowing down the plot. I can't be chatting about the bowling team or whatever." But, yeah, absolutely. Everyone's invited. Let's do it. It'll give us something to look forward to.

Rachel: The extracurricular activities at the Palm Meridian are aspirational.

Grace: That was so fun. I think when I first came up with that phrase, "lesbian retirement resort," I think the first thing I did was just sit down and give myself permission to just have fun with that and be like, what does this look like? What do they do? What food do they eat? What are they doing all day? And then kind of thought, okay, what was the story here? So, I think we got there in the end.

Tara: I love how all the different people doing the activities would get mad at the protagonist for sort of, like, rushing through their event, or there's a golf cart destroying something as they're flying around the resort. It was very entertaining to imagine.

Grace: Just chaos. So much chaos.

Rachel: I'm curious, because the Palm Meridian is so fantastic, is this novel going to be a standalone, or do you expect to see more of these characters or this location in the future?

Grace: That's a really good question. So, I mean, never say never. I mean, I think I've kind of accidentally... I mean, I would love to live inside the Palm Meridian universe forever in many ways. I think I really like that "Palm Meridian," the novel, is... It is like a closed circuit in a way, but there's so many characters who I would love to explore more like Esme or the Eileens and everything, that we only see these snippets of their backstory. So yeah, never say never.

When we were pitching the book to editors, we were kind of talking about it like White Lotus, where it's the same universe but each time it's different. So, we were talking about setting up a Palm Meridian in other countries or have it in a different climate or something like that. So, yeah, never say never.

Rachel: I'm ready for the PMCU, the Palm Meridian Cinematic Universe.

Grace: Yeah, 17 movies later and we'll have... Yeah, I'll take it.

Tara: So, what's next for you? I know that's always a terrible question when you're literally just releasing your first book, but what's coming up next for you then?

Grace: Yeah, so I've started work on something new. It's in such early stages that I truly don't have anything to tell you. I'm not just being coy. And it's in that stage where you're kind of going back and forth day by day, being like, "I'm a genius. This is garbage. I'm a genius. This is garbage." So, anything I write today could be thrown out tomorrow. But I'm really enjoying getting back into the writing process. I mean, it's daunting and it's freeing to go from... We were literally working on copy edits, picking which comma goes where and everything with the final-final draft of "Palm Meridian" and then to go back to the drawing board and be like, "Where in time and space do I want to set the whole, completely brand-new story?" So, yeah, I'm getting used to that beginning process again. But yeah, really enjoying it.

Rachel: And I'm going to put you on the spot with one of my favorite questions but questions that a lot of authors seem to not level out, which is, what do you like to read? And do you have any book recommendations of titles that have kind of inspired you as an author?

Grace: Yeah, definitely. So, this is a crazy thing, because I read all the time, and then people ask me this question and I'm like, "I don't think I've ever read a book in my life." So, there are two books that impacted "Palm Meridian" in different ways. So one, which is always the first book I recommend to people, is "Fates and Furies" by Lauren Groff, and also her book "Florida," a set of stories. So, she is a Florida writer, and "Fates and Furies" is, I think, one of the most powerful love stories I've ever read. And it kind of grapples with that. I wanted to be able to cover... It covers a whole marriage over decades and so that was something I really aspired to with "Palm Meridian." It's like let's really tackle a whole life here.

And then the other one is... Oh, and also, sorry, to say about her stories is just her stories in "Florida" set like the world of Florida in such otherworldly details. That was really, really... I think it was kind of in the back of my mind when I was writing "Palm Meridian" of capturing that kind of, like, the climate and the landscape and everything that makes Florida this kind of really otherworldly place.

But, yeah, the second book is "Goodbye, Vitamin" by Rachel Khong, which... She's one of my favorite writers because she's managed to... So, that book is about Alzheimer's. So, it's about a woman whose dad has been diagnosed with dementia. So, it's really, really sad and heartbreaking but it's also hilarious. I was literally laughing out loud. And again, that's something I really aspired to with "Palm Meridian" was like, I'm writing a book about death, but I want it to be really funny. So again, I had that in the back of my mind of, "I know that it's possible. You just have to kind of pitch it right." So yeah, definitely recommend those kind of three books.

Tara: Yes, we'll include links to them in our show notes so listeners can check them out if they're interested. And where can listeners find you online?

Grace: Yes, so I am pretty much only on Instagram. So, you can find me @graceflahivewrites on Instagram, so sharing everything there.

Tara: Awesome. Thanks so much for your time. We really enjoyed this and loved getting to chat with you. I know you guys have that Florida connection now forever.

Grace: I'm going to go back and look at the tapes. We have to look at that.

Rachel: I'm going to do the same, looking through the pictures.

Grace: Oh, my God. No, thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun and just a total pleasure.

Tara: Thank you for listening to the "Kobo Writing Life" podcast. If you're interested in picking up Grace's books, we'll include links in our show notes. If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe. And if you're looking for more tips on growing your self-publishing business, you can find us at kobowritinglife.com. Be sure to follow us on social media. We are @KoboWritingLife on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Threads.

This episode was hosted by Rachel Wharton and Tara Cremin, with production by Terence Abrahams. Editing is provided by Kelly Robotham, and our theme music was composed by Tear Jerker. And we'd like to thank Grace for being such a great guest and I hope I retire in Palm Meridian. If you're ready to start your publishing journey, sign up today at kobo.com/writinglife. Until next time, happy writing.