Kobo Writing Life Podcast – 372 – Writing What You Want to Write with Pam Godwin

Episode Transcript

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Tara: Hey, writers, you are listening to the "Kobo Writing Life" podcast, where we bring you insights and inspiration for growing your self-publishing business. I'm your host. I'm Tara Cremin, the director of Kobo Writing Life.

In this episode, we were thrilled to chat with Pam Godwin. She is a USA Today bestselling author known for her dark, gritty and emotionally charged romances. She has a talent for pushing boundaries and exploring the shadows of love. Pam has captivated readers around the world with unforgettable books. Her stories are intense, sensual and fearless, often diving into taboo themes with depth and compassion. Whether it's pirates, anti-heroes or forbidden love, Pam Godwin never shies away from the raw edges of the human heart.

Today we have on the podcast Pam Godwin. Thanks so much for joining us.

Pam: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Tara: Can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and about the books that you write?

Pam: Sure, I'm 50 years old. I have two adult children that have moved away within the last couple of years, so I'm still adjusting to that. Going from kids to no kids, it's definitely an adjustment. I went to school for computer science. So, I was in the financial industry. I was in the investment industry as a programmer and a quantitative analyst. So, going from that to writing was a big change, but I needed the change. So, the life that I had in the finance industry was consuming me and I thought, "Oh, I can just write books, that won't be as hard." Joke's on me. I have no regrets. I love the industry, I love writing, I love working for myself even though I'm a slave driver.

So, I have a husband that I've been with since I was 16. We've been married for a really long time. Right now my house is just filled with rescued animals, parrots, dogs, cats, all of that. We like to rescue animals. So, I live in the Midwest in Missouri, United States. So, that's a little bit about me. My books are dark mostly. I grew up always reading. I was reading horror and Stephen King, Anne Rice, paranormal, dark stuff as a child and that kind of, like, segued. And I think Anne Rice was probably my gateway into romance. So, I always wanted to have my villains in my horror novels have happily ever afters. This just wasn't a thing back when I was growing up. And so I started writing dark romance before dark romance was a thing. So, now it's a big thing. Everybody knows villains get love too, so I'm super happy in this. Basically, my books in a nutshell... Not all of my books have villains but there are some more fluffier books. I really just wouldn't call my books fluffy at all.

Vanessa: I did want to jump into the dark romance. Before that, I have a quick question about just getting started in the publishing industry. So, you mentioned you were a finance girl. So, how did that happen? Did you always know you wanted to be a writer essentially?

Pam: No. My company gave me a one-month sabbatical, which they were really good about that. So, we got to explore hobbies and do other things for a month while we were paid. And so I just took that month off and wrote a book. And then once I... It actually took me five years to write my first novel. And I didn't like... Self-publishing wasn't really a thing back then. I'm talking back in 2008-ish. So, I did the whole sending it to a querying agent, sending it off to traditional publishers. I did that for five years. And in the meantime, I sent myself through literary training for literature. So, I went through how to write technical craft, how to write literature, how to write romance, how to write thrillers, all of that. I took classes all over the country, a lot of classes in New York. And during that time, I learned that self-publishing was an option. So, when I was rejected hundreds of times from publishers, hundreds and hundreds of times, which is pretty common, I think, I finally got some advice actually from Colleen Hoover, who was very new in the industry. I had met her at a book signing and she was like, "Girl, self-publish that stuff." She was just like, "That's the way to go." So, I did and I have not looked back.

Vanessa: That's so cool. So, back to the dark romance, you're known for writing these very dark and intense stories. So, how do you balance that darkness with romance to create a very compelling and ultimately satisfying story for the readers?

Pam: I think it's pretty easy because we're always looking for a glimpse of goodness in our heroes even if our heroes are villains. Even if he's the meanest, most awful person, he can do all these awful things—murder, and cheat, and lie, and whatever—as long as he doesn't hurt an animal, that's our line in the sand, right? But as long as he's nice to the heroine... Not super terrible. Actually, he could be kind of mean, but also you're looking for that glimpse of, "Well, maybe he just likes her just a little bit or maybe he just..." I don't know. I just feel like it happens.

I have written villains that I never intended to redeem. And then I had readers after finishing the book saying, "Why doesn't he get an HEA?" Well, he's a pretty bad guy but okay. And it works. I think we just love... We like bullies. We don't want to be bullied ourselves in real life, but I think we just like those horrible, beastie, monster-type guys that are just so... They have maybe a tortured past, or they have this misguided perception of life, and we just want to go in and fix them. I think that's what we like. We just want to go in and fix them, but we just want them to be warm and sweet for us. So, I think it's just super easy. I think it's just... Redeeming a guy just seems like the easiest part. It's just balancing...not making him too evil where he can't be redeemed. I think that's kind of the balancing act.

Tara: And is that what drew you to writing in this genre?

Pam: Yeah, 100%. Every horror book that I read, whether he was a Chainsaw Massacre or, you know, a cannibal like Hannibal Lecter, I wanted them to have happily ever afters. I'm just weird that way. I just really loved horror, but I also really loved romance, and I just wanted that to mix. So, that is why I started writing dark romance, because I wanted those horror novels to have romance stories.

Tara: Nice, and it seems that you've picked the right thing to do. You seem to be really good at it.

Pam: Yeah, thank you. I try. It makes me happy. I don't know. I mean, if it ever goes out of style, I'll just keep doing it because it's what makes me happy.

Tara: I think that's a really... Your readers are going to respond to knowing that you're enjoying writing this as well.

Pam: I agree. Yeah, I agree.

Tara: So, do you outline extensively or are you more of a pantser?

Pam: I outline extensively. So, going back to my computer science major, my background in programming and development, everything was outlined. So, I wrote my first book in Excel in an outline. I wrote out the if/then/else statements. The whole plot and all the scenes and everything, I wrote in Excel. I think I did that for the first couple books. And then I eventually figured out how to... I probably need to be writing this in a word processing software.

But I use Scrivener now, which is really helpful. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Scrivener. It's great for screenwriting and also for plotters like me. So, when I say I plot, if I have a nine-book series and I want to write Book 1, I'm going to plot the whole nine book series first. I'm going to plot the entire nine-book series. I'm going to know all the characters are pretty good idea and all the scenes, everything that happens, the major plot points and pitch points and all of that. I don't know. I'm really just OCD about it. And I know it's super annoying and rare, but it's just my personality.

Tara: And have you ever had an instance where you have plotted out a bunch of books and actually while you're writing it, it goes in a different direction or are you too like, "No, no, no, we're getting to this point"?

Pam: I've had it happen one time. So, I have over 30 books and one time I had a villain that I killed off at the end, and I had an emotional reaction to it. For several days after I finished the book, I was crying. It was weird because I'm not a crier. And I was like, "I really did love that villain." So, I brought him back in his own book and that became a long series. So, that's the only time.

Tara: And I have to say, we've been doing this podcast for... I mean, I think we're like 360 or 370 episodes. I don't think I've ever heard of an author using Excel to write books in the way that you've described.

Pam: No, definitely not. I don't do it anymore.

Tara: I mean, I think that's cool. You always learn something new in these conversations.

Vanessa: So, I'm very curious as a fan, what kind of research goes into your books? Because I'm thinking the Frozen Fate series. I'm thinking how to fly a plane and how to do all these things for survival. How much research do you go into?

Pam: So much. So much research. So, I spend a lot of time with a psychiatrist maybe for my own mental health but mostly for my characters. I put my characters through... My best friend's husband is a psychiatrist, so that helps. So, I just meet up with him and I say, "Okay, here's my character. Here's what she's doing, or here's what he's doing. What are the right ways for them to respond?" Because I'm mostly concerned about a natural mental response. I write a lot of characters with mental health issues. Mostly, my villains are all jacked up.

But the Frozen Fate series, I met with a pilot, so I had to learn how to fly. Now, I actually was going to take pilot lessons, and I couldn't get it done in time for the books to be finished. I haven't actually even been to Alaska, which is really crazy, because I think every single one of my books, I've been to the location of where they're set except for this Alaska one. And I've been trying. I've been trying for the last couple years, and I can't get my schedule to work out. So, I don't think I'm going to get there until next year. The books are done, but that's okay.

I like to be in the area. I like to sit outside and feel what it smells like and tastes like or whatever in the air. I like to be very immersed. I wrote a pirate book that is... I studied the language, not just all of the culture and the clothing and all. I studied the language and how they wrote back then. So, I wrote it in the 1700s style. Mostly, I tried to make it so that it was palatable for today's readers, but I wrote it in that style. And I think I spent a year just studying that, just studying the languages. And then I had to learn how to run a pirate ship, how to handle it in battle, all the different positions and everything on the ship. That pirate book was probably my most extensively researched book. And then the Alaskan series was the second one because, you know, living in the Arctic Circle, that is a very different world. It also, though, allowed me to give it a little bit of my own worldbuilding, because the majority of people in the world have never been to the Arctic Circle. So, I was able to kind of make up a lot of my own worldbuilding and rules in that universe there. And I loved doing that.

Tara: And how are you doing the research? Say for this pirate ship, are you just finding a bunch of books? Are you just doing a lot of online research as well? Like, do you have any tips for areas that people can go to?

Pam: You know, I don't always trust everything I see online. I'm old school. I'm old. So, I literally went to the library. I did it like I would have when I was a kid. You know, I pulled up... I actually bought... I have it nearby but I bought these huge illustrative books, like the huge scholastic books of all the ships and the diagrams, and I studied those. So, I had pictures that were printed. I read through documents that were written back then, so I learned how people were writing. I went through... It was a very dark time, like the slavery back then. So, I went down rabbit holes very quickly. Like, when you're reading letters and documents and stuff from the 1700s, it's not pretty. So, there's a lot of... I found a lot of things that probably traumatized me during that research. You know, the internet, as it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and AI becomes more of a thing, I kind of want to back away from it because most of what's out there now is AI and I don't know how well we can fact-check all of it. I really still just trust the books that are...you know, like our nonfiction books that are in Barnes & Noble and the libraries and, you know, just the stores that you go to. You can pick up all kinds of nonfiction books on whatever topic you're writing on.

Tara: And because you're a real strict plotter, do you have a designated time for research? Do you ever get stuck in the research before? How do you balance the writing as well?

Pam: I put myself on deadlines, so I just make sure that I get everything done. I'm usually plotting books two in advance. So, right now, I'm writing a book and I've already plotted my next one. And while I'm writing this current one, I'm plotting the second one ahead. Because it takes me so long to plot a book, so every time I get an idea, I add it to my outline and I just keep them all separate.

So, I think the research just kind of comes with my outlining and plotting. So, as I learn things or if I see a TV show on, I'm going to write a fantasy series in the next couple of years, so I'm really focused on that. Even though I'm not writing that now, every time I see something that has to do with these monsters that I'm creating or whatever, I'll tune into that TV show or that documentary or whatever and kind of get ideas and then add it to my... So, I think I'm always kind of researching and outlining as I'm writing whatever current book I'm writing, if that makes sense.

Tara: No, totally. I feel like it must be hard to enforce your own deadlines in that way, but it sounds like you have a pretty good robust system for that.

Pam: No, I pretty much suck at meeting my own deadlines. So, what happens is I put myself on a deadline, and then I... Like my last book, I think I wrote it for a year. I will literally just let myself write and write and write on a book. And I have to basically sign a publishing contract, and once I sign a publishing contract, they put me on a deadline. And most of my publishing contracts are for audio, so I'm on a narrator's schedule, basically. And if I want a very particular narrator—like right now, I know I want a certain narrator for the book I'm writing—and I haven't scheduled it because I know as soon as I do, I will be on that deadline. And I'm not ready yet.

Tara: That's an interesting tactic to like you're writing with the audio deadline in mind.

Pam: Right.

Tara: Nice.

Pam: I actually write with audiobooks in mind now. So, my last probably 10 books, as I'm writing, I'm thinking about how it's going to sound in audio.

Tara: Cool.

Pam: Because audio is so prevalent now. I mean, that's the only way I really read books anymore is through audio, because, you know, you're busy. Everybody's doing stuff, but you can get a lot of books read while you're washing clothes and doing landscaping.

Vanessa: When would you have the time? You're three books ahead in your own mind so, yeah, you have to listen to audiobooks.

Pam: I am on that treadmill because I want to read that audiobook. That audiobook is why I get on that treadmill.

Tara: Vanessa, did you read or listen to Pam's books?

Vanessa: I have done both. I've done both. So, it just depends on the book. But speaking of the pirate books, the "Sea of Ruin" is the one, right? I did that for my book club, so my friends absolutely loved that world. So, definitely all the credit for research.

Pam: Oh, good. I'm writing another one. My next book, actually, is the next book in that world.

Vanessa: Amazing. Amazing. Well, speaking of that, people have... They know what a Pam Godwin book is, for sure. So, how do you balance the need for originality with the desire to give readers what they expect from your brand?

Pam: I write what I want. Period. I don't write... That's why I don't have publishers that own my full rights. I won't sell my full rights, because I have one time, but I don't like that. I like to just basically decide what I'm going to write, how I'm going to write it. I don't think about how the market's going to react. I don't write really marketable books, like those commercial books that do really well and they sell really well. You know, if you're wanting to make money in this industry, you write a commercial book, meaning you write it to a trope. You know, you write it so that if you put a picture of a cowboy on the front, it's going to give you exactly what you expect.

I have a book with a picture of a cowboy on the front, and it doesn't give you what you expect. So, it's not a marketable book, right? So, I don't care. I don't write marketable books because that's not my end goal. My end goal is not to be famous or rich or any of that. I just really love writing, and I don't want to have to go back to the finance industry to be able to, you know, pay my bills. I'd like it to just basically keep paying my bills, and then I do what I want. That's where I'm at.

But every author is different. You know, everybody has a different end goal. And if you're trying to raise a young family, and you're trying to make ends meet, and you want to write, you're going to need to write a marketable book. You have to.

Tara: So, you've mentioned that you've been, kind of, publishing for a little while now. And I'm just curious if having had this kind of bigger view, what is the biggest change that you think you've seen in romance publishing in the industry since you started your career?

Pam: KU. I think KU is... You know, I'm not a KU author. Obviously, I love Kobo. I love to be wide and put my books everywhere. I've never been a KU author. But as an author who isn't at KU, I really like KU because it's kind of like... All of the authors that are new, they tend to kind of go into KU because they're too scared to go wide. So, I think of it like a slush pile almost. And I'm not trying to be crass or mean or anything like that, because I went through the slush pile era where every time you wrote a book, you had to send it to publishers and it sat on a literal slush pile on an editor's desk and maybe never got out of that pile.

I kind of see KU being that, and the readers are now the editors where they go through the slush pile and then they decide which books are going to be bigger and which ones are great. And then those books can go wide. That's kind of how I see it. I could be completely off by it, but that's how I look at it. But I think because of that, it has completely changed the industry at least since I started. So, I also think that AI is changing the industry. You know, writers are writing with AI and whatever. I won't ever do it, because the one thing that I absolutely love in this job is writing, and I'm not going to give that away. I mean, I will stop. I'll just stop and find another job. I love writing so AI is not my thing. It will never be my thing. AI will be better than me as a writer at some point. So, if you ever want lower-quality writing, like from this human over here, then maybe it'll... That's just kind of how I look at it. AI is definitely changing the market.

Tara: And how has it been with your decision to kind of publish widely? Has that been something that's benefited you throughout the years, do you think, or are you still able to learn from different trends that are happening? As you're saying, it's sort of like this central place where... I love that idea of those readers becoming editors because, I mean, most romance writers start out being voracious readers. So, I'm just wondering how you stay atop of the global wide trends.

Pam: I think I travel a lot for book things, so I do like writing retreats. I meet with people whenever I go to events. I mean, I've met with Kobo before different events. So, I just have these discussions. And, you know, I'm not on social media a lot. So, I kind of don't hear a lot of that noise. I just kind of stay in my own silo. But then when I travel, because I travel probably 15 to 20 times a year, it's quite a bit. And I always make it so that I can meet with people. I don't just go... I am an introvert. That's my personality. But when I go to these things, I make sure that, you know, after the event, do you know where you go? You go to the bar. You go to the bar and you sit and you wait for people.

I think I've met a Kobo person at a bar. I've definitely met other authors at bars, and you get a little drink, and you get a little courage, and you can talk. I have had so many meaningful conversations just sitting in a bar all over the world. I think that that is very beneficial. Also doing panels, if you're doing author events, signings, or whatever, always sign up to do panels, even if it's completely out of your comfort zone. I think that just talking about your craft with people and readers, you're learning even as you're talking about it. As you do interviews, as you... Just having conversations. I think you stay up with the trends, at least. You at least hear what's happening in the world, what's going on. I don't know. And I'm sure I miss so much, because I keep my head down when I'm at home. But I'm fine with that. There's a lot of noise. I just need the long, 10-year trajectory. What's it going to be like in the next 10 years? That's what I kind of look at. I don't care about all these little things in between. That's my financial mind.

Tara: That's great advice I think because it's so easy to get caught up in how quickly things are changing or something that is the new shiny object. And traveling 15 to 20 times a year is a lot. Are you writing while you're traveling too?

Pam: Mm-hmm, I do. I mean, I write a lot. Yeah, I mean, I have to. And they're short trips. I bounce around. Being in the Midwest in the United States, I'm kind of central to everything so I can go around the country at least a lot.

Tara: That's a good point.

Vanessa: Just kind of going off of that a bit, I think that you've been writing for quite a while. And has there anything that has happened with your writing process that has evolved at all or anything that you used to do but no longer find helpful or anything vice versa like that or have you stayed pretty consistent?

Pam: I think I have given myself more slack. I think when I first started writing, I used to be a brutal self-editor, and I would not even let myself use "to be" words like the "is" and "are" and those dreaded passive verbs. I'm a big verb person, so I feel like if a sentence has a strong verb, then it's going to be a great sentence. You need a strong verb.

And I feel like I was such a Nazi with it in the beginning of my writing that it would slow me down. It would take me five years to write a book. I have given myself some slack. I know now when I'm doing that like if I use a "to be" verb, I'm like, "You know what? That just fits better, Pam. You're not going to spend the next two hours trying to find a better verb. If it fits better, move on. The sentence still makes sense. You're still getting your point across." So, just little things like that, I think that's how my writing has... It's just more relaxed, I guess, is the word that I'm using is more relaxed. I still use editors. I still use proofreaders.

Another thing I used to do in the beginning, probably for seven years of my writing, was I was part of a critique circle, which I highly recommend for all new authors. I think of all the classes and everything that I paid for to learn how to write, that critique circle, it's actually an online... They still have it. It's based out of Iceland. But you basically use a tit-for-tat system. So, you upload a chapter, and then you have to edit seven chapters of other authors' works. And then people will edit your chapter. And then it's line-for-line editing. They teach you craft. They teach you plot development. They teach you character development. These writers are hardcore. It's a wide range, and it's all genres. And it is a lot of work because every chapter that you load and submit, you have to critique seven others. So, it's a lot of work.

But anyway, I highly recommend that, but because of my schedule, I've not been able to do it, so I had to quit that. And I think I was able to take enough away from it that I don't need it now. But I highly recommend any author who is new in this business to do that. It's the best way to learn. And it also teaches you how to take criticism because they're critiquing and your skin gets tough real quick through that process.

Vanessa: That's an amazing resource. I feel like people wouldn't think that that's something they do but...

Pam: It is so great. And it's free. I mean, you can donate to it. I still donate to it. I love that. The organization is fantastic for writers.

Vanessa: Yeah, amazing. I did want to go back just to dark romance just for a second. I wanted to talk a little bit about... In your books, you explore a lot of power dynamics in these romances. So, I'm curious as what fascinates you about these dynamics. And is there anything you hope to explore through these relationships?

Pam: Oh, gosh. I mean, I think it just goes back to that villain character, whether it's a man or a female villain. I have written female villains. Just showing them and giving the reader this impression that they're absolutely horrible, and then when you start peeling back the layers, basically opening up their ribs and showing what's inside like a shock kind of, that's the shock value. Like, oh, my gosh, this is what's happening on the inside of this person and they're not really this horrible... The way their mind thinks, everything is not really...

So, I love exploring that. I will probably always continue to do that. I think that, going forward, I will most likely have more powerful females in my books than males. I think I was afraid to do that as much in the beginning of my writing, because the damsel in distress has always been the trope that everyone goes to, the virgin female. I do not write those, but I want to definitely write way less of that kind of style. I want my women to shine in my books. That's kind of where I'm at. So, I would say, if I want to explore anything, it's going to be just women dominating the world. That's what I want.

Vanessa: And I think that especially... I mean, one of my first books like that was "Deliver" with a very strong female character.

Pam: Yeah, she was the villain.

Vanessa: Yeah, she was. And it was amazing to read. And I think that kind of ties into my next question, which is what do you think is the biggest misconception about dark romance and dark romance readers?

Pam: I think probably that it's just really icky maybe or really more horror or shock value like rape with a device or just gore and stuff. And really, it doesn't. It's not. I mean, there is usually captivity. That's usually a common trope in dark romance but it doesn't have to be. I think it just has to be an uncomfortable storyline or a character that makes you feel uncomfortable. I think being uncomfortable is a theme that should be in dark romance. You're going to feel and not necessarily feel happy through the book, but it is going to make you feel. And I think dark romance definitely does that.

I really just think dark romance is a horror novel with a happily ever after. And the villain is usually getting that HEA. But I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people are just afraid of those. I think they're afraid... Especially readers that don't read horror at all, it just might be way too much for them.

Tara: And how do you recharge your creative batteries if you're ever feeling burnt out or uninspired?

Pam: I stop doing deadlines. I think I've been burnt out probably once in my career. It happened during COVID. I was on six different deadlines. It was terrible. COVID hit. I had to finish everything. And after that, I did not take another deadline for, well, three years, I guess. And it was like pulling teeth to get me to take that deadline.

But I think that... Just don't take deadlines. And if you're burnt out, what are you writing? Are you writing to market? Are you writing for a publisher? Because if you love to write, and you're writing something that you love writing, then I don't know that you'll get burnt out. I don't know that you'll get, you know, like that feeling of it's a job. I don't know. I mean, I don't really get that because that's why I write what I want. I'm so afraid that if I wrote what other people were telling me to write, or what I thought I had to write, I wouldn't be happy anymore and I wouldn't mind anymore, because I know authors who get these burnouts and get these feelings that they just hate the writing and they hate the job. And I know what they're writing. They're writing to market. They're writing to a formula the publisher has given them. They're not writing what they want to write. So, it's a trade-off, right? You want to make more money, you're going to have to be writing stuff you don't necessarily want to write.

Tara: I love that you've had this strong conviction, I guess, since you began writing that you've been able to stick with, which is really awesome. I'm just curious...

Pam: I'm stubborn.

Tara: I'm sorry.

Pam: I'm stubborn. Sorry, go ahead.

Tara: That's okay. Has your definition of success changed at all since you got started or has it always been like success to you is writing what you want to write?

Pam: Success to me actually is having my books be remembered long after I'm gone. Also, I know a little secret. When I started out writing, what I really wanted more than anything is a Stephen King quote. I wanted Stephen King to read one of my books and give me... I just wanted that. I've not given up on it. I have messaged him many, many times.

Tara: Stephen, if you're listening... He's definitely not listening. If you're listening...

Pam: Yeah, I know. He could just read part... I have a dystopian novel. You could just read part of it and just give me a little blurb that says he likes it. I will die happy. That is my ultimate goal in life to have that. That is what I started out writing to get, and that has not changed. Seriously, I just want to have... I want to be the best writer that I can be. I don't compare myself to anyone else. I compare myself to me. So, is the book that I'm writing right now better than the last book I wrote? It better be because that's what I'm trying to make it. I'm trying to make every book that I write better than the last book I wrote. And I want to always improve. I want to master this craft. That is my goal.

I mean, the income that comes with this keeps me from having to go work full-time. I work full-time doing this to master my craft, and that is all I care about. I don't need to be rich. I just need to be able to buy my avocado that I need every day and be able to write, pay my power bill, and feed my rescued dogs. I mean, that's really... My goals have not changed on that. And I think because I've kind of stuck to my guns on it, I've been able to stay very well balanced and mentally healthy with this job. If you kind of set yourself in the very beginning of your career, know what your goals are, and try to make it a goal that will work for you and keep you happy. Chasing money is not a way to stay happy. It's just not.

Tara: Yeah, it's so important to remember why you started writing in the first place. And I think that, like you said, can lead to burnout where people kind of forget what they like about it.

Vanessa: I love when writers are passionate about their books. It makes me so happy. And I love that you... It seems like you have a very healthy relationship with the craft. You know, Stephen King will find you.

Pam: Yeah, I mean, it's my therapy.

Vanessa: I love it. So, we kind of brushed on a little bit of it, but what are some skills or traits that you think are essential for this writing craft? Is there anything just beyond being able to write well?

Pam: I think you need a raw talent for storytelling. That's number one. You need to be able to tell a story and make it super compelling and gripping. And if you've got that, that's a huge hurdle. I mean, if you don't have that, then you learn it. You learn how to do it. You take classes to learn it. You go through online critique groups or whatever. In-person critique groups can help you learn that. But I think that as long as you are learning the craft, always trying to improve what you're doing, and using your raw storytelling and also knowing how to accept critiques because a lot of people who... Even a good editor might end up forcing you to edit out your own voice. If they're marking up your manuscript so much that it no longer looks like your words, you know, then they've started to edit out your voice. You have to be really good... You know, as an author, you learn how to be really good at understanding what is happening there. You know, are you taking the advice because it's the right advice or are you letting this editor or this critique partner completely change your voice? So, I mean, you just learn... And that's with experience also. You learn. You learn through that experience. So, I don't know. I don't know if I answered the full question.

Vanessa: Yeah.

Tara: Yeah. With your finance background, has this helped you on the business side of indie publishing?

Pam: One hundred percent. I don't want to brag, but I'm really good with money. I'm really... I will never be broke. I will never starve because I know how to invest my money. I know how to manage from an accounting standpoint. Now, I do have an accountant that does a lot of that for me, but I don't spend my money. I pay myself a measly salary. Like I said, I live off of just enough to get me by. I came from a career where I was making good money, so I didn't feel like I needed to hustle in this business. And I also knew how to manage the money on the financial side. I think it is so important, especially if you are an author who just explodes and starts making a ton of money, that you talk to someone, a financial advisor, an accountant. Don't spend your money, because then you're just going to be paying taxes out the wazoo. There's so many things that you could do to make your $100,000 turn into $1 million very quickly.

So, if you know what you're doing, I mean, I could take this into a whole nother show, and we could talk about finance all day long. But it's super important that as soon as you start making money, as soon as you have wealth in this business, or even if it's just a little bit, that you talk to somebody—a financial advisor, number one—about how to manage that money.

Tara: That's good. You can't be afraid of an Excel spreadsheet when it comes to this stuff.

Pam: No.

Tara: So, I want to switch to marketing a little bit because you talked about how you focus on what you want to write. You're not writing to market, which sometimes can maybe... I don't want to say your books are unmarketable, but it potentially can be challenging. Do you find it challenging to market your work or how did you begin...? How do your books stand out or what do you do that helps sell your work?

Pam: I do not market my books. I do not do anything. I don't even have a newsletter. I do nothing. My books are word of mouth. TikTok has helped them. People talk about them on TikTok, so they sell. The reason I don't market my books is because they are not marketable. I have tried. Like I told you with the cowboy, I have a book with a cowboy on the cover. It's really a dark romance book with a cowboy hat. So, when I put that book out there and say, "Hey, Western romance readers, I have a book for you," guess what happens? They all expect a charming, you know, chivalrous cowboy and his damsel-in-distress woman, and that is not what I write. There's a rape scene in the very first chapter. And these guys are lawless and horrible, murder people. My cowboys are not your normal cowboys. How do you market that? You can't. You can't. Just by putting it out there that it's a cowboy book in a romance genre, you're going to get people who read cowboys in the romance genre, and they're not going to get what they want.

So, then they go in and one-star my books, right, because it wasn't what they wanted. It wasn't what they were expecting. So, the only way for my books to really sell is by word of mouth. "Oh, I know Jill over here loves dark romance, and I just finished this book. She's going to dig this one. I also know that Karen over here hates dark romance, so I'm not going to recommend it to her." So, it gets in the right hands, you know what I'm saying?

If you write a book that doesn't fit its trope, then you're going to get a lot of bad reviews and a lot of people hating on it and it's just not going to fall into the right hands. So, I don't have any marketing advice. I do think that if you are trying to make money, you write a book that has a trope. Write a hockey player. Make it a hockey book that matches every other hockey book that's out there. Put a hockey stick on the front and then market it as a hockey book. You're going to sell it if it's written well. So, I mean, that's really all I have on that.

I do believe in book signings, so going to events. If you go to an event and sit behind your table and don't make eye contact with people, you're not going to sell your books. If you go to events, stand up in front of your table, call people over, ask them what they read, and then try to match them to what you're selling from your books, you're going to sell books all day long. So, you just have to know how to get yourself in front of people and sell. And word of mouth really works.

Tara: So, do you have a social presence at all?

Pam: I have an Instagram account, which is mostly dogs and tattoos. I do talk about my books. I have 30,000 followers. They're organic followers. I think that most of them probably haven't even read my books. They just like to follow my dogs and my tattoos. I don't know. But I found that talking about my books on social media doesn't really help me. It's other people who have to talk about my books on social media. So, my books do really well on TikTok, not because I'm doing anything but because other people are talking about them. Does that make sense?

Tara: Yeah, totally. But have you ever had like BookTokers reach out to try and collab or anything, or is it just like they're in their space, you're in your space and sort of stay separate?

Pam: No, I mean, I don't think so. I mean, if I have some that I see repetitively over and over again talking about my books, I'll send them books as a thank you, or if I see them at events, they'll come up and tell me, "Oh, I finally met you!" And then I'll give them books. I do what I can. But I don't really... I mean, I'm very grateful. I'm so grateful for influencers. I don't want to get involved in it. It's a lot. I really just want to write. Does that make sense? I just want to write.

Vanessa: This is fascinating. This is so I feel opposite of what people normally say when they come on the podcast.

Pam: I keep telling you I'm a weirdo. I know.

Vanessa: No, it's fresh. It's a fresh perspective. It's awesome.

Tara: You're living the dream. Authors would love to not have to market their books. This is awesome.

Vanessa: Yeah.

Tara: You've had your work translated into a bunch of different languages. You have six different languages, I think. And I'm curious if you can tell us about that process and what that was like.

Pam: I have traditional publishing for all of my books that are in other languages. So, they've come to me. I didn't really do a lot. I signed contracts. I have a legal team that, kind of, goes through all of that stuff for me. I had an agent at one time, and I parted ways with her, so I do everything myself now. I just kind of know, because actually I've had foreign translation contracts for so long. Now all of them are expiring. So, that's unfortunate for me, because now I have to start it all over again. That's how old my books are. So, now I'm like, "Oh, boy, I get to go do this all over again."

And a lot of the foreign publishers will just extend the contracts, which has been nice. But some of them are like, "Yeah, we're done with you. You're going to have to move on to something else." So, yeah. I don't have a lot of advice on foreign except to get your books in the foreign market. Because, you know, if you write, let's say you write one book, it's like publishing it in 10 different editions. I think I have 13 languages. The "Dark Notes" I think is in 13 languages. Some of them, I don't think, have been released yet, because I have contracts pending.

But yeah, you want to get them, because it's all that extra income. So, if you're just focused on the e-book, that is not the way to really go wide. You want to be... Actually print I think is starting to outsell ebooks. I don't know what the stats are on that, but for me, I sell more prints now than I do ebooks. And then audio is my top selling like, getting your books in audio.

But those foreign royalties, getting your books into foreign royalties. And I don't know. It's going to depend by country. Germany is all digital. So, I mean, I could go into a whole thing about this. Germany is all digital, so you can really get your books translated into German and get them out there in those translations and sell them pretty well on your own, just like you would self-publishing.

But the other markets, like France and Hebrew and Poland, Hungary, those are kind of some big-print industries, it's hard to get your books on their shelves without a traditional publisher. And that's kind of where I don't know how self-publishers do that. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if there's a trick to that. That's why I've kind of stuck with traditional publishing for all of my foreign translations.

Tara: Do you have any insights into the marketing that those publishers are doing for your books or you're just like, "You guys handle that. It's all good"?

Pam: I don't really have any insight. I have been flown to events for some of the marketing events, like in their country, so I know it's a big deal. And they treat their romance authors like royalty. When I say "they," readers in general. I went to France. My French publisher took me to Cannes, France, and the paparazzi were there. The paparazzi were there to shoot... That's how they treat... Like, the people in general treat authors like they would movie stars. It's insane. And so, you know, you have security, and it's a whole deal. They do huge, ginormous book fairs in Europe. I don't know if it's like that in every country, but just mostly in Europe that I've been around and seen. They do a lot of marketing with in-person events.

Tara: Was that validating or was it unnerving?

Pam: I think it was unnerving a little bit. I mean, because I'm not... I'm more of an introvert, and I don't like that kind of attention. So, it was an... I mean, it was a good experience. I'm glad I've done those things, but I don't necessarily want... I wouldn't want to be known like that here in the United States.

Tara: And it sounds like you get a lot from your in-person meetings with readers and everything. Did you notice any kind of difference in the readership overseas versus when you're doing these talks in the States or signing?

Pam: Yeah, the difference in the readerships is that they are thirsty for romance novels. They don't have the selection that we do in the United States. So, overseas and in non-English-speaking countries are mostly wide. Maybe it isn't in England and Australia also, but they are so thirsty and so craving more books. And they really just idolize their romance authors. So, I think there is a huge difference. I mean, romance readers are super appreciative in the United States, but they're not going to stand in line overnight for hours to see an author and then claw and paw... [inaudible 00:44:08] get to see them. I don't know. I haven't seen that anyway.

Vanessa: So, I've kind of a two part question, I guess, as we kind of round off here. What can readers expect from you next? And is there any specific maybe subgenre of dark romance that you want to get into?

Pam: Oh, wow. I really want to explore more historical dark romance. So, there's not a lot out there. I've plotted many ideas, things like gladiator era, medieval times, and the 1920s. I actually wrote an entire outline for a 1920s dark romance like 10 years ago, and I still haven't published that. But I'm just kind of waiting for the right time to fit these things in.

Historical romance doesn't necessarily work well with dark. It's just a kind of... If somebody's reading historical romance, they want it to be like their mom's bodice rippers, mostly. They don't want all this dark stuff. They want the light, fantasy read. What's coming next for me is I'm finishing a spinoff in my "Frozen Fate series," so that'll release this summer. And then I'm writing the next pirate book. That's a standalone in my pirate world. "Sea of Ruin" was the first book. The next one is coming whenever I finish it. I don't have a deadline.

And then after that, I am diving into a fantasy series that I've already started outlining. And that will take me probably... It'll consume me for years. I mean, I want to write a monster fantasy series like Game of Thrones with a lot of romance and monsters. Lots of monsters.

Tara: Of course. Oh, I think we could keep talking to you all afternoon. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Can you let listeners know where they can find you online, seeing as you don't have a very large presence? But where can they find you?

Pam: I am always on Instagram. So yeah, if you comment on any of my posts or send me a direct message, I'm most likely going to see it. Facebook, I'm not really on that. My Instagram rolls out, so you can see posts from me on Facebook, but you're not going to get me to reply to anything out there. I just do not... I interact on TikTok. I still, you know, do that. Email is always good. I'm a dinosaur, so I will always see your emails. Whether I reply to them or not is another story, but I will most likely always see them.

So, those are the best ways. Pam Godwin Author everywhere. I also sell my books on my website, so all my print stuff is out there. So, my website's a good place to catch up on what I'm doing also, pamgodwin.com.

Tara: Great, and we'll include links in our show notes for everything.

Pam: Thank you.

Tara: Thank you for listening to the "Kobo Writing Life" podcast. If you're interested in picking up Pam's books, we'll include links in our show notes. If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to rate, review and subscribe. And if you're looking for more tips on growing your self publishing business, you can find us at kobowritinglife.com. Be sure to follow us on social media. We are @KoboWritingLife on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Threads. This episode was hosted by Vanessa Salemi and Tara Cremin with production by Terence Abrahams. Editing is provided by Kelly Robotham, and our theme music was composed by Tear Jerker. And thanks to Pam for being such a great guest. If you're ready to start your publishing journey, sign up today at kobo.com/writinglife. Until next time, happy writing.