KWL - 355 - Writing Paranormal Romance with Michelle M. Pillow

In this episode, we are joined by New York Times and USA Today best-selling author and prolific writer Michelle M. Pillow, author of dozens of novels across several series. Michelle writes in the genres of fantasy romance, paranormal romance, science fiction, cozy mysteries, and more.  Michelle has sold over a million copies of her books and has written over 100 titles! Her prolific catalogue and years of experience mean she has a wealth of advice to author for indie authors, those both established and entirely new to the world of indie publishing.

Her latest release is Mostly Shattered, the second book in the urban fantasy romance series Merely Mortal. Be sure to check out the rest of the series.

We spoke to Michelle about her start as a writer, how she plots her books and what her writing process entails, her world-building process, her experiences in the early days of indie publishing, marketing her backlist and balancing new writing projects, writing (or not writing) to the changing reader market, and much more!

In this episode:

• Michelle talks about her foray into writing, and how she initially wanted to be a photographer and get into photo journalism
• We ask Michelle about how she plots her books and what her writing process is like, especially in regards to the visual elements
• Michelle talks about her experiences in traditional publishing, and how they differ from her experience with indie publishing
• We ask Michelle about how she writes in multiple genres, and if her process changes for each genre
• Michelle talks about world-building, her world-building process, and how she carries her worlds across long-running series
• We talk about backlist sales, and what Michelle’s strategies are around promoting and selling older books in a new market
• Michelle talks about following market trends, and how to manage your time as an author in regards to both writing and marketing
• We also talk about the cyclical nature of books in terms of genre and trope popularity, and hear some advice from Michelle regarding writing what you want to write vs. writing for the market
• We talk about the growth of eBooks in the context of indie publishing specifically, and Michelle’s experiences in the early days of digital reading
• Michelle tells us about writing series, the challenges of starting a new series or continuing an older one, and how to balance your author expectations regarding series books
• And much more!

Useful Links

Michelle’s website

Michelle on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, X/Twitter, and TikTok

Mentioned in this episode:

Merely Mortal

Mostly Shattered

Dragon Lords series

Episode Transcript

Transcription by www.speechpad.com

Laura: Hey writers, you're listening to the Kobo Writing Life podcast, where we bring you insights and inspiration for growing your self-publishing business. We're your hosts. I'm Laura, one of Kobo Writing Life's author engagement managers.

Rachel: And I'm Rachel, Kobo Writing Life's other author engagement manager.

Laura: On today's episode, we spoke with Michelle M. Pillow. Michelle is a prolific New York Times and USA Today bestselling author with over a million books sold. She is the winner of the RT Reviewers Choice Award, and though she writes in many genres, she is best known for romance and mystery. Her rich world-building creates portals for the imagination, and she loves to interact with readers.

Rachel: We had such a wonderful conversation with Michelle, and I feel like we could have talked to her about her prolific career for at least another hour. We spoke to her about the changes that she's seen throughout her publishing career, both in the indie sphere and in the trad publishing world. We also talked to her about what she believes the trad publishing world could learn from indies. She told us all about her marketing strategy and how she keeps her huge backlist thriving. And she had so much great advice for authors, both new and well-established. And there's just so much to learn in this episode, and we hope you enjoy.

Laura: Hi, everyone. We're here today with USA Today and New York Times bestselling author Michelle M. Pillow. Michelle, can you start us off by telling our listeners a bit about yourself?

Michelle: Sure. First of all, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, I'm Michelle Pillow. I am a multi-genre author, primarily in romance, though I do have a lot of subgenres. And I love this job so much. I'm excited to share it with other aspiring authors and authors who are listening to the podcast. And hopefully I can give them some insightful, helpful information for their upcoming careers.

Rachel: Amazing.

Michelle: Or current careers, depending on where they're at.

Rachel: Well, we're very excited to pick your brain. But before we delve into that, start at the beginning. Did you always want to become an author?

Michelle: Actually, no. When I was younger, about 10 years old, my dad had given me a camera. And for the longest time, I wanted to work for a magazine or National Geographic and a bunch of magazines that are now defunct. So, they probably wouldn't have made a great career. But I love the idea of capturing moments and telling stories. And so for the longest time, I wanted to do that with a camera and would do photo stories, things like that.

And then as I got older and I discovered romance novels in high school, I really connected with the idea of exploring the emotion in interpersonal relationships. Not just the romantic relationship, but I liked the formula and the format. And I did like falling in love and the idea of happily ever after. And so I started reading more of that. But I also read a lot of classical literature in high school. And it was like this weird game I liked to play. I'd like to go and try to find a book that hadn't been checked out for 20 or 30 years in the library because we used to have the card catalogs and little library cards in the book. And so I would go and I would try to find something that hadn't been read for a while. And that ended up being a lot of literary classics like Jane Austen and Tolstoy, things like that.

So, I really fell in love with different types of storytelling. And I, kind of, just got to the point where like, "You know what? I can do this. You know, I'm interested in doing this." And some of the stories were not ending the way that I wanted them to end or I wouldn't have done it that way, so I wanted to change it. So, I started writing. And very soon, the photography aspect of it took a backseat, and I probably rarely pick up my camera anymore, which I do sometimes miss that. But, yeah, basically, long story short, becoming an author, it was a natural progression for me as far as wanting to capture moments and tell stories and to elicit emotions in the viewer or the reader.

Rachel: And I'm kind of curious how the love of visual storytelling through photography, and I know in your bio, you're also a huge movie fan, how that translates into your writing? Do you ever storyboard scenes to have that visual element or is it all just, kind of, processing in your brain as a visual story?

Michelle: Over the years, I've done it in different ways. I mean, sometimes I'll find an actress or a model or a photo or even just photo journalism. I'll find something that maybe inspires an idea. So, I'll, kind of, use that as a jumping-off point or maybe to inform how I want the character to look or act. Sometimes it's just a photo that invokes a feeling that I want to capture with words. So, I do use it in that way. But for the most part, when I'm writing the actual book, I, kind of, see it in my head as a story. And there are a lot of times where I don't see everything around me while I'm writing. My office isn't there, the kitchen's not there. But I can see the room that I'm standing in. I can visualize where everything would be. And it's, kind of, funny because I've noticed some of the sci-fi futuristics I wrote, I know where everything was on the planet and where everything in the palace was and where everything was located. And even 10 years later, 15 years later, going back into those worlds, it's like I've already been there. It's like going back to a childhood home where you know where everything's at and you can just visualize where it is. And I think my love of the visual storytelling has come back to... It basically infused itself in the writing process for me because that's how I see it in my head. And if I'm going overly long on these answers, please stop me.

Laura: Gosh, no.

Michelle: Just give me a cue.

Laura: We love it. We love it. Don't worry.

Michelle: Wrap it up, lady.

Rachel: Absolutely not. Nobody tunes into this to listen to Laura and I. Come on. Come on.

Laura: Can you tell us a little bit about what your publishing journey has been like? Because you are a hybrid author and you also are indie, can you tell us a bit about that?

Michelle: Sure. Yeah, I've, kind of, done almost different facets of the publishing world. When I first started, it was with small press, which was right when e-books were becoming popular. So, they were considered a small press or e-first press is a lot of time what they would be called. And so I started with that. And then from there, I got picked up by traditional publishers. So, I did the traditional route for a while. And then it was probably about a year before the indie presses like how we can sign up with Kobo to sell books and distribute that way and really take a hold of our careers. About a year before places like that started popping up and things started happening, I was getting a lot of my old books out of contract. They were time-released contracts. And I'm like, what am I going to do with all of these? Because I don't want to re-up them unnecessarily with the same place, but a lot of the new publishers I was working with wanted brand new books and they weren't going to want a 10-book series that had already been published. And even if they did want that, it would be publishing maybe one or two of them a year. It would be another 10 years before that series was re-released before I could put another book out for the readers. So, I'm like, "I need a better solution for this."

And so I started...I put together a store on my website. I'm like, "Okay, if you want the backlist, here." And it was just a case of the right thing at the right time, because then places like Kobo and everybody started opening up for us to be able to release books with and do self-publishing and be indie. And so I really had a nice head start on that because I had all this backlist stuff from publishers. And that's really how my indie catalog started. And I like to let people know that I am so happy with that decision. You know, it was really scary at the time. I remember getting a lot of advice from people like, "Don't do that. You have traditional publishing contracts in front of you. You have these offers. Why would you go indie? Why would you do that?" And I'm like, "I have this feeling. I love the idea of the control. I like being able to have control over my publishing schedule. I love not writing a book and turning it in and then having to wait 18 months for the editing process and before that book is released. And just that longer timeline." I like to be able to plan things a little better. And I loved the idea of having a place where I could rapid release my backlist as they came out of publishing contracts.

So, for me, it was a natural progression. And I want to say that I prefer one way necessarily over the other because there are pros and cons to both. I do like the extra help you get with marketing and some of the cover processes and just the day to day business, non-creative stuff that publishers can bring. But at the end of the day, I also love having control of those decisions more and not being told, "This is what your cover is. I'm sorry if you don't like it but it's it." You know, for me being able to find that cover and do it, it is a lot more work. But I think at the end, I've got closer to the product that I really want to get out there to readers when I want to get it out there.

Rachel: And as somebody who's dabbled throughout many facets of the publishing industry, do you think there's anything that the traditional publishing industry could learn from indies?

Michelle: Oh, wow. That is an amazing question. I think that there's always something to be learned. If you ever stop, regardless of where you're at in your career or who you are or what you're doing, if you always think that you have it completely sussed out and you've got it, I guarantee you, especially in industries like the publishing, that's going to change. I mean, look where we were two years ago to where we are now. The things that we're dealing with now are not things that we dealt with. And I think one thing traditional publishing could learn from indie authors and I think they are, kind of, learning it from indie authors is you have to have more adaptability. You have to have a faster response time.

Like I mentioned before, when I would put up with traditional publishing, I could write the book. I'd have a deadline, I'd have to get that book in, but it might be another 18 months before that book releases. Now, if we're dealing with a quick, reactive market, there's something... There's a reason for this type of book or there's a hunger for this type of book, because say a brand new show came out and now everybody's looking for vampires or everybody is looking for whatever element that it is or enemies to lovers or all these things. And it's the perfect time to strike. Well, if you have an 18-month lead period, you got to think it's maybe two years from when you write the book to when something might come out. And so I think one thing traditional publishers can learn is you have to have a faster response time. You have to be more flexible with your publishing schedules.

And I think sometimes, too, with the traditional publishers, they have such a big beast, and there's so many moving parts and so many departments that it's hard to get those elements in line to be quickly reactive. Now, when you're an indie publisher and it's you and you're making your own decisions, yes, it's a lot of responsibility. But you've got that ability to like, you know what? This genre is not doing so great right now. I'm going to go ahead and delay this book and I'm going to start a new series or I'm going to go ahead and up this series or readers are really resonating with this one project so I'm going to move all those books forward. And you're not waiting for somebody's okay, and you're not waiting for somebody's okay on, "Hey, we know we've had this book for five months, but you suddenly have edits. Can you get them done in a week?" And you're like, "What?" You know, all these little things. So, it's, kind of, I don't know. Like I said, I find pros to both methods and I find cons to both methods. And I feel like I'm rambling a little bit.

Laura: No, no, you're not. This is all so good.

Michelle: Sometimes my brain just starts firing and I just keep going.

Laura: And it's such a good point about that adaptability and just that willingness to experiment that indie authors have that publishers could definitely learn from, because one of the things that we love about working with indie authors is that they're always willing to try different sales with us, try subscription programs and try different genres. So, yeah, I definitely agree with that adaptability piece.

Michelle: I also think, too, that's a good point, because it's like with the genres and stuff, too. I love blending genres. I love playing. I love letting my muse go where it goes. I try to bring certain parts of me to the story, the way I tell stories that stays consistent for readers. I remember some of my very first rejection letters from big traditional publishers was, "We love this book. Marketing would not know what to do with it." And so basically I kept feeling like I was getting rejected by the marketing department because it was like... The one I'm thinking about was like this Tribes of the Vampire series. It was dark vampire romance. It wasn't sparkly. The vampires were bad. So, it was very... I mean, it would probably be very popular now with the whole enemies to lover and the morally gray heroes that we're seeing more of. But at the time, they were like, "We love it but..." And I got that a lot. So, I think you made an excellent point about the genres and being able to play because you're like, "Well, this book that I have, it's paranormal sci-fi fantasy, futuristic. So, hey, let's do it."

Laura: Speaking of that marketing piece, does your strategy change depending on if it's a traditionally published book or one of your indie books?

Michelle: Most definitely. I have not published traditionally for several years now. That's not to say I never will. It's just that's not the projects that have been in the forefront for me. But yes, a lot of times with traditional publishers, they have, kind of, an in-house marketing plan that they want to go through. So, in the past, I know that it's been anything from them taking me to a conference to where I would have a big 400-book ARC signing for readers to try to get the book out there, to try to network, things like that that a lot of traditional... It seems to happen more with traditional than it does in my indie career. They'll have their marketing teams or they'll have their PR teams. And so sometimes I'll be contacted by somebody's PR department or they'll have... They'll just send me like, "We want you to do interviews or write blog posts for these places or do all of these things." So, it's, kind of, given to me is what they're expecting from me. And then on top of that, I'm expected to use my contacts and to do what I do on the side within their parameters, which sometimes means I won't have an advanced copy that I can give out to readers to try to... How I would normally promote as an indie would be... I sometimes have restrictions in my contract where I can't give out gift copies or I can't do giveaways or I can't use my ARC team for things like that. Now, with indie, yes, all the responsibility falls on me, which is, kind of, one of the cons. But one of the pros is, is I can make those decisions. And if something comes up and somebody is like, "Well, I'm a blogger. I really want to read your book. You know, can I get a copy?" I can say yes without having to stop and ask somebody for permission on that, or I can say yes without knowing when my contract is going to say no.

So, I do think that there is... I don't know. I think, with traditional publishing and then with indie, I have my personal contacts that I have built up with indie. So, whenever I have a release, I, kind of, have this personalized checklist for me that I go through and I'm like, "Okay, did you contact this person? This person wants this Sean Rowe book. This fits that." And I just, kind of, go through my list and I checklist off. Did you notify the book distributor? Did you let Rachel know at Kobo that something's coming out or that you have this idea for this promotional thing? And it's really great because we have that connection. Or, if you have something going on, the distributors will contact me and I can say yes right away. So, I do think that it comes back to being able to be reactive to the moment what's happening around you on a daily basis versus on a monthly basis or a yearly basis with the traditional publishers.

Rachel: Now, you have mentioned genre a couple of times and you write across several genres. Your catalog includes... I'm going to miss something for sure, but you have romance, fantasy, paranormal romance, fantasy romance, women's fiction and cozy mysteries. Is your writing process the same across all of these genres?

Michelle: To a point, I think the process generally stays the same. No, as far as going to the book. And it, kind of, depends on where I'm starting off with the idea or if it's an already established series where I'm using worlds that I built 10, 15 years ago. I do think that for different genres... For instance, cozy mysteries. When I did the cozy mysteries, it was a shared world with three other authors who are amazing, talented authors, Jana DeLeon, Mandy Roth, and Kristen Painter. So, we have this idea for the shared world. So, we have parameters that we had to write our stories and for that, which was a little bit different than, say, if I'm just going on my own and like the new fantasy I wrote, that was completely me from scratch. But it was also... New to me was the first-person aspects of it, which was the first time I'd ever published a first-person story.

And I was starting a brand new world and I had certain elements that I wanted to make sure I hit. So, I put, I mean, a lot of forethought into it. And it was one of the first times, too, that I actually sat down and wrote out a beat sheet and an outline and really tried to get into that process versus having a loose outline, which I normally do with the paranormals. But also, too, when I'm writing in a serious world that's been around and I'm on book 20, for me, that's different because I don't have to think about the world-building as much because it's already established. But if it's a brand new book, then I have to stop and concentrate on that. And it's a lot more detailed process when it's a new series. Does that answer...?

Rachel: Absolutely. And I imagine the world-building aspect is so important because so much or so many of your books do exist within a paranormal universe of some kind with different magic rules, different rules for different creatures, etc., and so on.

Michelle: To me, that's the fun part of it. I love character and world-building. So, if you're the type of author who likes imagining and wants to push the boundaries, I think paranormal sci-fi fantasy, those types of elements are really great because you can basically do whatever you want in the world. But I will say those types of worlds are more believable and resonate better with the reader when they are grounded in some type of reality. So, I also try to make sure that I'm doing that. When you're building these fantastical elements, you want to make sure that there's a reason for it. And I think one of my favorite examples is like if you're writing with magic, you're writing a world of magic, where does that magic come from? How does that manifest? That energy has to come from somewhere. And if you have something that it just, kind of, it is just because, that could be less realistic to the reader, as opposed to... So, for me, like with the Warlocks MacGregor, how I solved that problem was in order to manifest magic, yes, they are magical beings and stuff and they can do it, but they borrow the energy from living things. And usually for them, they want to borrow from nature, so trees. So, if they were to put off this big blast of magic, they could kill an entire forest. So, they try to take just a little from each thing versus trying to kill off nature, because without nature, then they have no magic or they have no ability. So, for me, that's how... That was, kind of, the rooted in reality that things aren't just that way just because. I know why that futuristic society became that way. I know why magic exists the way that it does within the world. And I think those types of minute details, if you're the type of author who likes thinking about those things and likes getting lost in the weeds and the details, then this is definitely a genre to explore.

Rachel: And when it comes to like creating these worlds and enjoying the building, do you ever run into the issue where you have all of this information about this world you've created that you want to include but there's not as much room in the book for it?

Michelle: Yeah, that's a great question and a valid point. Definitely do run into that a lot. I mean, especially in my earlier books, when I go back and I read them and I see them, I can just see myself info dumping because I was so proud of all these things I thought of and just wanting to get all this information and wanting to get the backstories and get all these little details that I was so proud of. And I wanted to make sure everything made it in the book because it was so realistic. And later I have over time... It was a hard process to let go of, but I started realizing that, as the author, these are things that I do need to know. When I'm starting a brand new world, I need to know why things are the way they are. I need to know about the flora and fauna. But the reader doesn't need a history lesson. They don't need a biology lesson like, "Okay, well, this is why they're yellow. This planet has three suns. So, this is how the weather is and this is why it is." And you want to know, as the author going in, everything stays consistent. And everything is believable. And if somebody comes up and asks you like, "Well, this thing you did," then you have an answer and be like, "Oh, yeah, I did that because of this. It's just not in the book."

All these elements, too, when you're writing, you're planning a series. Like I mentioned, I have a series, and then a spin-off series, and more spin-off series. And so you're getting into 30-plus books in one universe. Well, over the course of those books, because of the things I established in book 1, those things slowly, kind of, roll out over time or they're hinted at over time. And then so, for example, the Dragon Lords, they are a futuristic set on another planet. They're dragon shifters, but they do have a connection to medieval Earth. I won't get into all the details, but there's portals and stuff. And they did have a connection to Earth. And they had left when supernaturals, and witches, and people were being prosecuted and a bunch of things they did. They wanted to get off the planet, and they did. But none of them really remember that because it's futuristic to our time, so that's in their deep, deep past. And so for them, I know the world. I knew all that going in. But the reader doesn't know that in book 1. There's hints of it.

And there's also hints of their society having evolved from a medieval Earth-type society. The Dragon Lords had a lot of... and the Lords of the Var, who are the enemy race on their planet, who also have their own serious installment because I wanted to tell the story from the other side of the point, even though they both hated each other. They have a lot of Norse mythology behind them, and they have a lot of words, and customs, and Welsh customs, and European customs, and these different things. And then I have other planets and other things that have Asian cultures as part of their basis or other cultural influences that have developed over time. And so I thought like, "Okay, this is where it started. And this is where it is now. How did it get there?" And I don't talk about that with the readers, but I flavor it into the books where I try to and I hint at things. So, by the time they get to book 12 or new series installment. And then I went back because readers were interested in their backstory. That kind of developed interest in it.

So, I did the Captured by a Dragon-Shifter series, which actually was in a series installment in our modern time. So, I took it basically to the Dragon Lords' past, their ancestors when they were coming through the portals to Earth to find women before the portals were destroyed. And so then all these little things that I had hinted at in the Dragon Lords series became a reality in Captured. And then readers were like, "Oh, that's how that started or that's how they got that really weird custom." And it was really fun to, kind of, play but I was able to do that because I knew, as the author, what those details were.

But I think if I would have put 12 books worth of book dumping information into book 1, nobody would have gotten through that. I think I even went back through some of them and took some of those elements back out from my earlier works, that it was holding down the story and it wasn't needed but it was then later revealed in different...later on down the series. And I think that's a good way to keep readers interested in what you're writing and in the world and like, kind of, developing those questions, because then you'll get readers emailing you going like, "What's up with this?" And then you'll, kind of, see what elements they're interested in reading more of. And that, kind of, also helped me shape where some of the series went, because they were like, "Well, what happens when they leave the planet?" And I'm like, "Okay, well, I'll tell you. Here's the Space Lords series. Enjoy."

Laura: Do you plot out the full series ahead of time, or do you only have, kind of, the history and the setting and that kind of thing?

Michelle: The second one, you know, I'll have an idea. And usually I used to like to really do four or five book installments. That seemed to be a good rhythm and a good fit. And then I would go write the next series installment. The Dragon Lords ended up with nine books. Lords of the Var, which was the second series installment, ended up with five. But like Dragon Lords, I wrote the first four books, then the five Var. And then there was interest in some of the things from the Dragon Lords. So, I went back and wrote books five through nine with the Dragon Lords to, kind of, give answers to some of those questions that were coming up from readers or the things of interest that were with them. So, really I think it's just, when I sit down, I... And especially now... When I first started, it was just like, "I want to write it all. And I'll never forget this. All the details are in my head. It's perfect." And that's not true. I go back and read some things like, "Where was I heading with this element? What was I doing? Where did this come from? And where did it go?"

But now I sit down and I like to plan the series world. And I think if I know the world and I know the characters, when I set those characters down into the world, I'll know how they will react. I'll know what is possible for them, what's not possible. I'll know their backgrounds, things like that. And so I do that with the main characters. And then I'll do that with the side characters, because a lot of my series follow different couples in each book. So, you'll have like brothers or they'll be connected somehow. And so when I'm doing that, I don't necessarily know what's going to happen to the rest of the couples or with the whole series. But I'll start setting up a big overall series ARC plotline so that readers can follow. And then I will make sure that that book is a standalone book as far as the romance story, that they get the happily ever after, all the things that they want in the romance books. That's my short answer.

Rachel: I'm blown away by the number of series that you have mentioned, because you have over 100 published books, which is bananas impressive. And most of those are in romance. Then you have novels and other genres. And I'm just so curious how you keep your catalog alive and thriving with such a large backlist. Do you find it really challenging? Do you have any tricks for maintaining such a large backlist?

Michelle: It is a lot of work. I have over the course of my career had to go back and rewrite and reedit and rework some of the older books. And that's, to me, probably one of the harder jobs is trying to go back and revisit and to also capture who I was when I wrote it. You're not who you are today that you were 10, 15, 20 years ago. So, trying to get back into that mind space of who I was and what was happening at the time but also modernizing and updating it. A good example is when you're writing contemporaries and if you've been writing for a really long time, you've got people answering their pagers or waiting for the dial-up on the computer.

Michelle: You know, things that make it very dated. So, I do have to go back and I try to update some of those elements where, okay, you've got a smartphone now versus dial-up Internet. You know, nobody has a home computer versus everyone has a smartphone. So, there's things like that, that you go back and want to, kind of, touch upon or depending on the series and if you're still writing in it, if you want to modernize it a bit. Otherwise, sometimes you just embrace that it is the time period that it was. So, I mean, things like that. It's something that you want to consider and you want to think about. And you, kind of, have to do it on a series by series or book by book basis.

It's a lot of work on one hand, but on the other hand, having those there, if I wrote something like Dragon Shifters, that did okay when they were first released, but then there was a dip in interest with the readers because suddenly everybody wants historical romance or they want vampires. They want something else. But then you wait long enough, those dragons come back. And so you have this series here. So, either you can put your covers on it, blurb, address any problematic things that may be worth having it reedited or just doing a read through or even a complete rewrite. But you have that story there that you can bring forward to the readers. So, it helps you be reactive to what the market wants and what readers are talking about.

One of the harder things I found was when I have decided to stop the series like they were coming out of contract and it's just they were staggered releases so I didn't want to put out any new books until all the other books were out. And then readers lost interest in the series or I lost interest in it. But then those three books suddenly for some reason, it just hits perfectly like 10 years later when I'm in the midst of another project. And I think that's the hardest thing is I had all these old notes and have all these old ideas, but I don't have time to stop and write three more novels for a series that I had already given up on. And that's happened a few times where it's just depending on where I had left the series off for the situation and you want to look at your sale numbers, too, to help, kind of, drive what readers are wanting from you. So, I ended up doing like three more novellas, but those were really difficult because my head was no longer in that space. I had pretty much just cleared out that junk room in my head of where I was keeping all those ideas and those thoughts and that brain space and moved it to a different world or a different series that I was really interested in.

But as far as revitalizing it, some really practical tips on the business side would be you've got to, kind of, figure out how to balance your creative passion with the practicalities of the business, which is going to be your marketing, your promotions, your just any like your time management, networking, podcasts like this, things that you do during the business, which isn't the actual passionate creative process of writing. And a lot of times for authors, I feel like that's one of the most interesting things about us is that we live in those two very, very different worlds and they're two very different demanding types of things. And I think that's what successful authors do is they figure out a way to marry those two together. So, when you're doing these backlist stuff, you've got to think of all these practicalities and so you look at, "Okay, how can I recover this book? How can I rewrite the blurb to make it more modernized, to make it in line with what's selling nowadays?"

When the Dragon Lord series was... Dragon Lord's book 1 "The Barbarian Prince" was my second book published. But those first covers were oiled-up models and loincloths in very masculine manly poses. And they had the long wavy hair and very,v ery... They did really well for the time. And I still love the covers just for the nostalgia sake of it. But then you, kind of, come forward and I can watch how my covers have progressed over the years where they weren't so oily and you still have the man chest covers. And they weren't all oiled up as before. And maybe you don't see a loincloth or all these different elements to today, which I still have guy-centric covers, but I have been thinking of redoing them to more of an object cover or you're seeing a lot of the smoke, and the dragons, and the emblems, and the symbols. So, that would be a huge difference. If I would have kept those those first covers that had the oily guys with the loincloths, which I'm sure is not a beautiful way of describing your own book cover.

Rachel: I'm curious.

Michelle: But you could picture it, right?

Laura: You can totally…

Rachel: A hundred percent.

Michelle: Nobody's going to see this, but you guys, but they were all standing like this.

Rachel: Oh, yeah. Just biceps popping.

Michelle: Yeah, just like... They all had this weird pose. And there's probably good reason we're not on video.

Rachel: I think this is a reason for us to start releasing video. I mean... Oh, that's so funny.

Michelle: This is the time that you changed your mind. I'm going to be the poster child for your first video.

Rachel: Don't tempt us. Oh, that's funny.

Michelle: And this is what Michelle does when you're not looking. So, anyway, yes. So, backlist cover stuff. So, that would be one example of how you want to change with the times like going to the object covers, something that's going to capture the modern reader and sometimes, too, maybe they didn't like the bare-chested covers or maybe a reader didn't like your blurb or you weren't enhancing the type of tropes that are popular nowadays, even though they were there. So, you could have a lighter enemy-to-lover trope in your book. But when you wrote it, nobody was talking about tropes or enemies to lovers, or that's not what was hitting with readers and what they were looking for, but you had it. And so those are things, too, where you can reexamine the book and be like, "Okay, what's in this that the modern reader will want?" You know, these readers that are new to you and have never heard of you and have never heard of your series or who might have looked at the book and you were promoting it as a fantasy romance more than a sci-fi romance, even though it has both in it. And maybe they were like, "Well, I don't like fantasy, but they like sci-fi." And so you can start, kind of, following those trends. And you just have to keep examining your list to see where it goes.

The hardest part of that with the backlist is when you have to get in there and you feel like you didn't do something right the first time or you published too quickly or it wasn't long enough. So, my best advice is, even if you're in a time crunch, don't skip any corners, do the best you can, because you don't want to have to revisit that thing five years from now because you're going to be working on a different project. You want to make sure it's as perfect as you can make it when you put it out there. On the other hand, if you do make a mistake as indies, it's great because you can get in there and you can pull it back or... My biggest pet peeve is I'll have 50 ARC creators or beta readers and editors and me go through the thing 50 times. And there'll still be that one little typo that just stands strong that you don't see until right after you push publish into the vendor dashboards. And then it's like processing and it's going out there. And you're at the end of the deadline and you've got that book file in. And then it's like, oh, and then right there on the first page, it's staring at you. There's a giant...like, the is misspelled wrong, or you've got two of them in there. And there's just some really horrible, easy elementary mistake that the 50 people who looked at it did not see.

Laura: And it's the first email you get on release day is some author telling you about it or leave you a review with the typo.

Michelle: Yeah, it's like, oh, this book is horribly edited. And I'm like, "What are you talking about? There was literally... I have the list right here. I had 50 ARC readers read this thing before it came out and send me any of their finds or the beta readers sent me their finds. And, yeah. But I do like that about indie is, if that does come up, you can be instantly reactive and get in there and change it. Luckily, it doesn't happen a lot, but it always feels like there's always just that one, and it's stupid, and it's easy and you have no idea why you missed it so many times.

Rachel: I think that both the immediate reactiveness of being indie, being like, "Oh, there's a typo on page four. Let's re-upload a new file or get a cleaner copy out," is great. And then also, like you mentioned, the backlist, those titles don't have to be the same forever. You can fancy up that cover. You can alter your blurb, like you said, to highlight tropes, because in traditional publishing, your backlist from 10 years ago probably isn't going to get recovered and re-released. Chances of that happening, unless you're like a Stephen King, Margaret Atwood, pretty slim. So, I think it's really cool that you can follow trends with your backlist as well as your frontlist. I don't know. I think it's exciting and fun.

Michelle: Yeah. And I think, too, the practicality of it... And that kind of lets you tap into like the creativity of it, too. If there's like, you know what, I didn't really... This cover wasn't perfect. It worked well for the time. But I have this idea, or I want to do this, or I want to keep writing in the series, and I want to change everything up. You've got that react... You know, you're able to do that. But like you were saying with the traditional publishers, like them not wanting to touch it again, that would be like with the example of the typo. If I get a book back and there's a typo and whether it's my fault or not, it always comes back to me because I'm the author, my name's on the book so it'll always be my fault, regardless of whether I put it there or not. But sometimes you'll see like... I had situations where typos were added into the book like during the editing process that were not mine. And I'm not going to name names or go into it. But when that happens and you're given this final copy of the book and it's like, "Here it is. Here's your author copies." And you're sitting there and you're staring at this thing. And you're just like...

Laura: It's so frustrating.

Michelle: Can I please just have the print book file so we can send the new one out to the publisher? Because usually by then it's in print and it's going to bookstores. And you're just like... And you know sometimes it's just so tiny and nobody notices it or you can just, kind of, laugh it off. And I know I'm not the only author it's happened to. But when it's not my mistake but it's still my responsibility, it is very frustrating. But I do like with indie, you can go in there and you can fix that published... even if it's the print format because I've got IngramSpark and stuff in there distributing the print books or like with Kobo, I can go into the dashboard and in two seconds I can have a new file up. And for somebody who's a little bit of a control freak, I love that. And that way, there's not that little tiny typo in my head nagging me like... And sometimes the typo could be something readers will never realize but it bothers me like, "I don't like the spacing," or, "Why did I choose this giant letter at the start of the chapter? It's scrawly and it doesn't really fit. And what was I thinking when I was doing the formats?" So, you can go back and you can change those. Or, another great thing is back matter, which I don't think everybody always thinks about is if you have a series list in your book, either in the front matter or the back matter, and you don't have... Say you've got four book series and you've got it planned. And even if all the books haven't come out, but you know what their titles, you can put that series start in there.

But then what happens two years later, you come out and you're like, "You know what? I'm going to write five more books in this series." Well, then you've got all these books out there, but you can go and you can update that back matter, that front matter instantly like, okay, well, these are coming, these are the names. So, anybody going forward who picks up those first books will know you have nine books in the series versus four books in the series. So, they know what to expect, but it's also a great way. You can have clickable links where you can have people following along in the series. So, I think to the back matter and the front matter, being able to change that, being able to update your author bio whenever you want, if you have something cool happen, you add your New York Times letters or you add awards, things like that or you just want to update it, you can do that in all of your books instantly on places and even in the print formats, which in the past has been incredibly hard. So, that is one of the things I absolutely love about indie is being able to nurture your backlist but also improve upon it as you see fit.

Rachel: That's some excellent advice. Thank you.

Laura: So many good points there. One of the things I wanted to ask you, because you've been publishing for so long, what changes have you experienced in the indie publishing landscape since you started?

Michelle: Oh, wow. When I first started, I remember I had... This dates me so bad but I don't care. But when I first started, ebooks were newer. And I mean, some of the formats we were using back then like the .lit format, you can't even get today. A lot of the publishing places that we're putting them out no longer exist. I mean, we had Fictionwise and Sony and all these places. But I remember having to stop and constantly explain to people... And the most common questions were things that people would probably never ask now. It's like, well, this is on the computer. Why do you have a book cover when it's not a book? And I would have to explain to them that ebooks are just... They are books. They're just in a different reading format. And I can't explain how many times I had that conversation with people. I mean, it was constant. And I remember there was an FAQ section on my website that actually answered that. And I wasn't the only author because you have to... Why does this book have a cover when it's a file? And nobody would ever ask that now. Things like that. Or, what is an ebook and how do I read it? And we'd have to walk people through how to open up book files on their computer, things like that.

Completely aside but it was kind of funny, I remember being asked a few times when I said I wrote paranormal romance, people would ask me what paranormal was. And I would have to try to explain that because it wasn't as popular at the time, I guess, or just people who that wasn't their circle of interest. They weren't watching horror movies like I was as a kid.

Rachel: Weren't watching X-Files. Come on.

Michelle: Yeah. And you would get these questions all the time. It's like, "What is paranormal? What does that mean? And dragons? Tolkien, what are you doing?" or you would have to try to explain the genres. You would have to explain... They were so used to mainstream romance. You had contemporary, you had historical, you had your thrillers, your suspense, and you would have these mainstays. And then sometimes you would get a vampire thrown in. Anne Rice, kind of, brought those vampires out for everybody, things like that. So, that's one of the big thing that I noticed is the type of questions I get have completely changed.

But the one thing... And this is, I guess, some of my advice for authors in general, or especially aspiring authors looking at your career, is have a focus of what you want and what you want to do but always be open to the idea that things are going to change. You're never going to have the process down perfectly. And a lot of the changes are going to be out of your hands. So, publishing contracts change, where you can publish changes. I've had publishers go out of business. I've had book distributors go out of business who still owed me money and owed other authors money, things like that. So, you have to be ready to adapt and you have to pay attention to what you're doing. And I always like to, kind of, say that one of the best mindsets I had throughout my career was being open to new opportunities and never saying never, because I know that there was a time where a lot of people were like, "Oh, I would never go indie. Why would I give up a publisher? I would never go indie. It's a backstep and it's bad." And then people would look at me like, "Why are you doing that? You have these traditional publisher contracts." I'm like, "But the terms aren't what I want or it's not what I want to be doing. I want to try this." And so I think being open to new opportunities and never blocking yourself off from a possibility in the future.

I no longer say I will never write any more books in that series because I've stopped series and then had to go back and do them later. So, I think that having that open mindset throughout the career has been the one thing that's kept constant and kept me in my career, because if you get stagnant, or you stop looking at changes, or you stop paying attention, that's when you, kind of, lose the interest of the readers. And that's just when you, kind of, start hitting... Your career goes downhill.

The other thing would be to accept that careers are going to go up and down. Over the years, I have seen the popular genres... Historical romance was really popular for a while. And then it, kind of, went away and everybody wanted dragons or everybody wanted vampires. And you see this. And if what's popular today is not what it is in your heart to write, be open to the possibility of, one, writing something new or combining what you love with what is popular at the time but also staying true to your voice and not having to follow all of those trends. Because if monster romance is what's popular now but you're a historical romance writer and you don't want to write monsters and you don't want to do historical monsters and your readers expect historical, keep doing what you're doing. Because the one thing that I have learned is that market is always going to turn around. There'll be always a reader out there looking for what you're doing. And the popularity of that genre that you're doing will come back around. And that's one of the cycles that I've really seen. It used to be almost a five-year cycle you could bet on. It's like historical is popular, then everybody wanted contemporary. And then historical is popular and everybody... You could almost time it out. At the beginning of my career, there was this three to five-year period where... And you could watch it with the big publishers, too, what they were asking for as to what you knew was going to be coming up in two years once they got those books and those contracts and then when they were going to come out. So, you could, kind of, watch that cycle.

But, yeah, I guess the one lesson was everything changes. You know, nothing is ever going to stay the same. And I mean, some of the things when I first started and I was going from explaining what an ebook was and why it needed a book cover and why that is the stupidest thing. Why would you put a cover on that? You know, it's not a book. And having to explain that the ebook was a book, it's just... And a lot of people didn't even believe it until it actually came out in a print book format because paperback usually came out after the ebooks with the smaller presses, if the ebook did well. And then they believed it was a book. But going from that to today where everyone is... I'm not going to get into the AI debate right now. That's a whole other topic and story. But now we're dealing with AI and we're dealing with the problems, the pros, the cons, the challenges that come along with that, and the concerns that come along with that. And like I said, it's a huge topic. But going from having to explain what an ebook is to this, it's kind of a huge example of how over the course of your career, things are going to change.

And going back to that, just staying open to new opportunities. And I think putting myself out there and just saying to my publishers like, okay, well, I really enjoyed working with you for these reasons. And not just publishers, like book distributors, you guys at Kobo, any of those things, you're putting it out there just saying, "I'm available for more opportunities. I'm open to suggestions. If you have anything that comes up, please think of me." And I think if you're somebody who is open and tries to be engaging and tries to be responsive and professional with your job, that a lot of times things will come back to you. And there'll be things that you don't even realize. So, an example of staying open to opportunities, because we, kind of, started talking about over the course of our career I think is where the question started and I digressed but...

Laura: It's all good.

Michelle: One of the things that... I'm really good at digressing topics. But, okay, so over the years, when I say stay open to opportunities, sometimes those aren't a publishing contract. I mean, one of them was where I was offered... Somebody liked my writing style, thought I was easy enough to work with. So, they gave my name to an agent for a house project that a publisher was doing. And so that's, kind of, how I got that job, just from having that network and that connection but for also just being open and talking to people. And sometimes you'll get project invitations where you'll have to say no. I've been invited to do anthologies, and I just cannot fit another novella in. And a lot of times there's a reason for me to say no. It doesn't have anything to do with the people in the project. It's just my time. It doesn't work out because I try to plan my schedule out a year or two in advance.

An example of staying open to the opportunities, the one I was going to talk about was my first audiobook narrator that I had hired that I had done as an indie author, the first audiobook, she ended up working on the production of Z Nation for the Syfy channel, which was really cool. And so one of the opportunities that came up talking to her doing the books... And that's how we got to know each other, and we became friends that way. And she had narrated a bunch of books for me. And I told her that my dream was always to be a zombie extra in a horror film because I felt that was my acting ability. I'm pre-copy Michelle stumbling through the kitchen, stiff-legged. Perfect. I've got this down. I'm like, "That's my dream is I want to be a zombie extra. I don't need to be famous. I don't need to be front and center. I just want to be in the hoard behind." And that was, kind of, always my joke. And I had told her this, but she worked on Z Nation. So, through her and then through some back and forth and just joking around, I ended up getting the opportunity to be an extra on Z Nation.

Rachel: That's amazing.

Michelle: I like to say that I was a future zombie because I was a refugee of the apocalypse that was in this camp.

Laura: That's so great.

Michelle: So, I like to say future zombie because I, kind of, feel my character maybe would not have survived long roughing it. They give her some food she didn't like, and she'd be like, "I'm out."

Laura: That's amazing.

Michelle: But what was really cool... So, I mean, the opportunity happened, which has nothing really to do with writing books, but I was able to do a magazine article about the experience for Paranormal Underground magazine, and things like that, kind of, came out of it. But it was really cool because here we are on set with all the famous actors around the thing. They were all hanging around, and you're feeling really cool. And I looked like a grungy '90s, could have been through some hard times in my flannel, and my greasy hair, and my shiny face because they kept slathering us with sunblock and stuff like that. But as we were on set, one of the things my family, my now husband, and my daughter and a friend, we were able to all get on as extras. So, we were all there. So, it was, kind of, this fun thing, but it was my daughter's birthday. And so I don't know that I will ever top this as a parent but we had a bunch of zombies in a cage singing happy birthday with their beautiful zombie voices to my daughter on her birthday. And I think that was one of the coolest birthday things I've ever done as a mom.

But that all came about from just being open and talking to people and being open to new ideas or just new possibilities with your writing career because not everything always has to be about the book. You're building a brand. You're building a career. And these types of little extra things, I think too, especially now with TikTok and Instagram and all these social media platforms you're trying to put content on, those types of opportunities that come up that are interesting that you only get because of where you are at that moment, like there is no other way in the world I would be an extra for a sci-fi. That's just not my career path, but I got the opportunity. And I think it's interesting for readers to see that, and it gives you content to talk about on social media, too, things like that. So, there is a practical side to it. But it's just a fun story. I mean, it was just something really cool that happened over the course of my career.

Rachel: I might have to go back and rewatch Z Nation to see if I can find you, because I have seen it.

Michelle: You might see legs or something. I'm not sure how much of it actually made. I know one of us you could see walking away from the camera, because we were in this camp outside of this defunct power station or something and there's a bunch of fences up and stuff.

Rachel: That's so cool. That's so fun. I am very cognizant of time. I know we've kept you for almost an hour at this point, but I do have one final question for you, because I'm so curious as such a prolific author who has so many series under your belt, yo have recently launched a new series, Merely Mortal, Book 2 of which is coming out October 29th, which is around the time this episode is coming out. And I'm so curious if you still find it daunting breaking in a new world and launching a new series.

Michelle: Absolutely. When you have a series that's a fan favorite with readers but you feel like you're getting into Book 9, Book 10, Book 15 of that series and you feel like you're starting to repeat yourself or you feel you've told the story you want to tell and you're ready to move on but readers really love that, saying that you are stopping that to spend your time on something brand new and untested is incredibly scary. And for me, Merely Mortal was one of those projects I had thought about for years. I had done, kind of, almost like a test novella for an anthology that had the same name to, kind of, feel out the concept and to try to play with it and stuff. And then get some reader reactions like, is this something that they maybe would have liked? And I got a lot of positive feedback from it. But when I pulled that... The novella is no longer for sale. And actually, everybody can just forget that I wrote it because it's so completely different now. I mean, every aspect of it is pretty much different, except for the name. And even the age of the heroine is different.

That idea of starting something new and I knew that this was going to... I wanted the books to be longer. They come in at about 100,000 words each. I knew I was going to have to spend more time with the world-building. I knew I was going to have to give a lot of my creative energy and time to this. It's really hard to do that when you're like, okay, but if I just would stop and write some more of this, I know that it would sell. I know that readers will grab it. I know that they would gladly follow that along. But I want to do this. And it's a new first-person POV versus third-person POV. It's a different type of story. It's told in a different type of way. I'm able to delve more deeply into the characters' thoughts, but it's very character-focused and this single character's POV. So, yeah, it's absolutely terrifying to try to put that out and to also know, when you're starting a new series... Even though I've had multiple series, even now with my readership and my reader base, when I start a new series, I go into it knowing that it's going to take probably about three books before readers really start giving it a chance. And some of it will be they don't want to wait. It's like when we binge-watch TV shows and we wait till the shows are done before we go and binge-watch them. It's the same with books and readers. They'll want to know that they're going to be able to read the whole thing if they get into it. So, knowing that and then trying to put elements like that into your understanding of what the book and the progress that you're doing is really... I mean, I think it's important to... It, kind of, helps limit your expectations of how excited I am about this project, knowing that the more that I put into it, the more that I put out, the more it's going to start snowballing and then hopefully get back to where my other series were with readers. That feels rambling. I don't know if that made sense.

Rachel: I was just about to say it's really refreshing to know that someone who has published so many series still gets a little bit nervous.

Michelle: Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, on release day, I will be refreshing mad. I mean, I'm sure you guys can go in the back and just sit there and laugh at the authors on their release day just to see how many times they're pinging the login and just like, "Okay, well, Michelle did it 3,000 times in 24 hours," and I would not be surprised if that was an actual fact.

Rachel: I wish we had that intel.

Laura: Yeah, I also wish we had that intel.

Michelle: I feel like one of your tech guys could get in there and be like, yeah, this author...

Laura: That's so funny.

Michelle: And we can have an awards like The Most Neurotic Author Award from Kobo. And it'll be like Michelle...

Rachel: That'd be a good competition.

Michelle: Michelle refreshes 50,000 times in one week.

Laura: That's so great.

Michelle: I don't know if we're supposed to let readers know how neurotic we can be behind the scenes, but I mean, it is what it is. It's true.

Rachel: Authenticity. That's what readers want.

Laura: That's the important part. Michelle, it's been so fun chatting with you, but can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you're working on next and where they can find you online?

Michelle: Sure. Well, as we were just talking about, the Merely Mortal series is currently what I'm working on. Book 2, it's called "Mostly Shattered," and it releases end of October. And I do have at least two more books planned in that series. And then getting to, kind of, that third point to see how readers are reacting and if they want it, whether or not I go beyond that. So, yeah, that's, kind of, my full focus right now is that. But I also want to tell my readers that those of you who are looking for the Qurilixen World, which is, kind of, a universe collection of series, the Dragon Lords, Lords of Var, I am planning on more Qurilixen World lords and series installment books for that. So, I have not given up on the other ones just because right now the urban fantasy is, kind of, taking front page.

And for more information, you are welcome to visit me on my website, michellempillow.com. And really everything's there. You can find my social media links there. And if you want to talk to me or have questions, feel free to email or just join us on social. I try to stay active and try to answer questions as quickly as I can on there for readers because I know you don't want to wait for your answers.

Rachel: But we will include links to books and your website in our show notes. And, Michelle, thank you so much for chatting today.

Laura: Thank you. This has been great.

Rachel: This has been so wonderful and so much great advice.

Michelle: Thank you. I really hope that it does help authors out there. And if there's anything that I said that an author is curious about or has questions, I always like to say that it's all about being open to meeting new people and new opportunities. So, if you do have a question about something I've said today or want more clarification, feel free to email me. I'm happy to. If I can help, I'll help.

Rachel: Amazing. Thank you so much.

Laura: Thanks, Michelle.

Thank you for listening to the "Kobo Writing Life Podcast." If you're interested in picking up Michelle's books, we will include links in our show notes. If you are enjoying this podcast, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe. And if you're looking for more tips on growing your self-publishing business, you can find us at kobowritinglife.com. Be sure to follow us on social media. We are @KoboWritingLife on Facebook and Twitter, and @kobo.writing.life on Instagram and now on Threads.

Rachel: This episode was hosted by Laura Granger and Rachel Wharton with production by Terrence Abrahams. Editing is provided by Kelly Robotham. Our theme music is composed by Tear Jerker. And a huge thanks to Michelle for being our guest today. If you're ready to start your publishing journey, sign up today at kobo.com/writinglife. Until next time, happy writing.